'The Battle of the Five Armies' in theatres | SPOILERS

I agree about the slo-mo effect, both Cate and Celeborn guy had it to a greater or lesser extent, but I am having a hard time imagining anyone as great as Cate in the role, cant think of another actress who comes even close, she had the right balance of queenly, and mysterious and a bit dangerous, and yet friendly and gently smiling on the other. Obviously no one is going to be satisfied 100% with Galadriel, its impossible to show either an Elven queen or Lothlorien as magical as we imagine it, but on the whole Jackson did a wonderful job, its just unnecessary nit-picking to criticize the solutions he came up with. As for this scene, its perfection, it gives me goosebumps its so beautiful, literally gives me a physical reaction. Just this scene alone would make LOTR my favourite films

I agree no one could have got it perfect, but I disagree PJ's version is as  close as you could get- its ruined by decisions they made- like the slow-mo and covering her in rubbish cgi, and they wrote the script which leaves all the subtlety and wry humour of her character out as well as crucial meaning.
So for me its neither the best performance you could have, the best lighting you could have, the best use of sfx you could have or the best dialogue you could have- so a fail on every point in fact.

Regards the elves leaving scene- its one of my favourites, and it does capture something of the books feel regards Gildor and company leaving, at least visually- so its a shame only fans ever got to see it, as the bulk of the audience who saw the theatrical versions never got to see it- which, given how crucial this setup is for understanding the stories ending shows just how purely judged PJ's choices always were for what to keep in and what to take out- story/character beats- they go every time in favour of excessive spectacle and action staying in.
Pj actually thought even more fighting a troll in Moria, or the crumbling staircase, or a dwarf tossing joke were more important to keep in than that elves scene.

the tumbling staircase was excellent, theres no way I would have left that one out.

''So for me its neither the best performance you could have, the best lighting you could have, the best use of sfx you could have or the best dialogue you could have- so a fail on every point in fact.'' Petty

Its the best lighting you could have, its the best actress you could have and its the best dialogue you could have, and the best atmosphere .

I hate that scene- is no replacement for the Beater of the Drums scene or gandalf confronting it and trying to close the door and the whole place caving in- that drains Gandalf right before his big fight adding to the tension as well providing the necessary build up for the arrival of the Balrog. Hell he is so drained he cant even provide any light.
The straircase looks ludicrous, its a cheap way to create tension and has an awful out of place dwarf tossing joke in it.

Id rather have had the above elves leaving scene over it, as that scene serves a very important narrative purpose whereas the staircase scene is just unnecessary spectacle in the middle of a sequence of events that are spectacular enough already and it serves no narrative purpose. And as I say when you have the brilliant set up with the Beater of Drums Tolkien provides, a collapsing staircase is a pale thin replacement for any of it.
But hell PJ had to fit in 15 minutes of troll fight and the collapsing staircase so obviously the better Tolkien narrative just had to go.

its great cinema

I thought it was cheap and cliched cinema myself, Ive seen it before in other films- now Gandalf putting a shutting spell on the door and it all exploding under the tension and the ceiling collapsing and Gandalf getting thrown backwards down the stairs- that would have been good cinema, and served the narrative purposes it does in the book of draining Gandalf before the Balrog appears and of upping the tension towards the Balrogs appearance.

And even putting aside Tolkien superior storytelling here, you honestly think having the collapsing staircase is more important than having the scene where Frodo and Sam witness the elves departing?

it was brilliant thrilling cinema. at that stage in the game he was defo on the side of balancing story and cinematic spectacle.

There is a big fight with orcs, a lengthy troll fight, the collapsing staircase and the Balrog encounter- not sure where the balance is there if you jettison the story elements as Pj does for one pointless action sequence after another.

And how is losing an important scene like the elves departing for more boring spectacle a good balance?

well most of its in the book apart from the staircase.

There is no big troll fight- the orc fight is a skirmish, Frodo is stabbed by an orc chieftain there are no stairs collapsing and no dwarf tossing jokes.

Its completely different in the book- the troll doesn't get in, the Beater of the Drums is confronted by Gandalf -they have a magic spell off with Gandalf shutting the door an the Balrog opening it and the whole thing goes boom under the strain- exhausting Gandalf and sending him flying backwards down the stairs.
The film does not have the trap the orcs sprung being ruined by the orcs finding themselves on the wrong side of the fire fissures and in a visual I was really looking forward to but PJ ddnt bother with we dont see the trolls coming with slabs of stone to bridge the chasms over the fires and let the orcs spew across.

So how exactly is most of it in the book?

Petty as usual I agree with your sensibilities and criticisms. These points you make:

Galadriel for a start- there is queenliness yes, and stiffness, and aloofness, but there is no warmth, no sign of the elf maid dressed in simple white...And why does she talk like she is in a dream all the time?

and your many points through the years about Jacksons abandoning important lines which gave the books depth and tied things together I can't agree more.

The difference between brilliant  dialog and so so, is sometimes very slight, again and again Jackson shows he doesn't get it by making these changes For No Good Reason At All!
With each silly revision stacked one upon the other until that which made the story a very special thing is watered down and diminished beyond endurance for me. Instead of using the great lines he is given ,he chooses to rewrite and use watered down inferior ones   Why? Only he can say for sure,

I agree as well about the Moria scenes you talk of, The trite and  tired tumbling stairs was just silly.

When I think of the book versions tension, from the finding of the book in the tomb room till getting out the gate I can't see why there would be a need to hype and invent these cheap ways to build tension into the film. The book was SO tense, had you sitting on the edge of your seat, Why cheapen it with those domino stairs, tossing dwarves crap?

And something I Hated the very first time I saw it, was when Gandalf was hanging on the edge for like minutes it seemed while people stared at him and did nothing to help him... For gods sake someone give him a hand!        
That was just pathetically weak, I'm sure it was Jacksons attempt to really milk that moment that was so powerfully shocking in the book, but the prolonged event made it LESS shocking and just plan stupid and weak in my view.

Halfwise: It is true and unfortunate about Aragorns voice, He was fine and did a reasonably good job but his voice is so incongruous with his look , the wife and I have had many a good laugh over some of his words, especially when he is excited.




Mrs Figg Yesterday at 6:41 pm...I for one think LOTR was perfect. It could hardly have been better done. Arguments about green lighting will not take away its majesty or its beauty.

...its just unnecessary nit-picking to criticize the solutions he came up with.

I respectfully strongly disagree, It is so far from perfect on many many levels in my view.

Jackson just had no clue as far as how to retain the spirit that Tolkien employed, either that or he just chose to ignore it and substitute his inferior one. In either case he is way off of the state of perfection.

The countless changes, little and monumental, in dialog diminished the story tremendously, not just a little in my view. " go home Sam, gollum is my best friend now, " Oh my god, that sort of crap is unforgivable! Faramirs revisions...not if I found this thing laying on the road... I can go on and on and on...

These asinine and completely unnecessary changes to the story, pilled one on top of the other weaken the story in such a profoundly important manner that I can't begin to understand how you can say it was perfect and couldn't be better.

Even if you do love it as something different from the books... how can you say it is perfect? Is the book imperfect? One or the other seems to be necessarily imperfect since they are so very different from each other. I don't believe the book is perfect, nothing I have ever seen in this world is. But, the movie is only a shadow of the quality of the book in my opinion. Watered down to the point of unpalatability.

I don't mean to sound as if I'm attacking you, I am not. I know you are a lover of Tolkien, I just don't get how someone can Love both the book and the film I guess is my problem... I see how someone could love one and like the other, but perhaps this is a personal malfunction and it is just my curse.  Again, to each his/or her own... I am nobody, I am not judging you and feel free to ignore me if you would rather.

Thanks Music.
My on take on the butchering of Tolkiens dialogue is that they simply dont like his style, which would explain why they rewrote almost every line of it.
It doesnt explain the bigger mystery mind you of why you would make a film based on a book whose dialogue and characters you dont seem to like any of- thats is a puzzler.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I thought it was cheap and cliched cinema myself, Ive seen it before in other films- now Gandalf putting a shutting spell on the door and it all exploding under the tension and the ceiling collapsing and Gandalf getting thrown backwards down the stairs- that would have been good cinema, and served the narrative purposes it does in the book of draining Gandalf before the Balrog appears and of upping the tension towards the Balrogs appearance.

Yes totally agree. That part in the book was very atmospheric and creepy. Very horror setup. Abandoned fortress, finding remains killed by something fearsome and unknown, drums, Gandalf afraid!, running for your life and with escape right before you the fearsome entity finally reveals itself. With Jackson it's an action sequence. He's doing more Die Hard instead of Alien. The crumbling staircase scene works well but it's like a pared down rollercoaster ride scene that he likes doing in movies - the king kong falling dino scene, the goblin fortress, the river barrel scene. There's no real tension, it's just acrobatic antics.

Sort of see what you're saying about Blanchett, but I like her voice. I think it could have worked.

I dont blame Blanchett for the performance- she does well with what she is given- which isnt a lot- and I imagine the direction for how she had to stand with her arms out stiff at either side so they could add all the rubbish effects over the top of her didn't help her performance- and I assume the slow motion speaking was how she was directed rather than her instinctive choice (I hope at least).

The major issues with her stuff is the presentation and direction. And thats PJ's doing. And the script and thats Boyens and Walsh fault.

My thoughts on reflecting on the Three LoTR movies, and the two Hobbit movies I have seen so far (whicjh are two too many!) is that PJ should be killed, the sooner the better. I don't agree with the death penalty, but surely there are some crimes so bad that we must... just must... and this without having seen Hobbit Movie 3....

Bad show Orwell!
I say!

Speak not so harshly!

Id take peejers all the way back to Ancient Greece, to the time of the great philosophers. Make him sit there, chained to a rock & forced to listen, day & night, till he learnt something Then, whizz him forward to  Marquis De Sade & on to Shakespeare, Tennyson, Keats & finally .....................................



PETTY !

Then after Petty has given peejers an education......give him to me

Pettytyrant101 wrote:There is no big troll fight- the orc fight is a skirmish, Frodo is stabbed by an orc chieftain there are no stairs collapsing and no dwarf tossing jokes.

Its completely different in the book- the troll doesn't get in, the Beater of the Drums is confronted by Gandalf -they have a magic spell off with Gandalf shutting the door an the Balrog opening it and the whole thing goes boom under the strain- exhausting Gandalf and sending him flying backwards down the stairs.
The film does not have the trap the orcs sprung being ruined by the orcs finding themselves on the wrong side of the fire fissures and in a visual I was really looking forward to but PJ ddnt bother with we dont see the trolls coming with slabs of stone to bridge the chasms over the fires and let the orcs spew across.

So how exactly is most of it in the book?

you do understand the concept of cinematic adaptation don't you? The main events are all in there but adapted visually and that means a sprinkling of spectacle amongst the original story. The ideas are all there and a casual observer would get a damn good idea of what happened in the book. It was handled extremely well, was visually exciting and did what it said on the tin. you moaning Minnie!

Yes I do understand the concept and PJ missed it- the concept is to try to capture the mood, feel and spirit of the original in a new medium- and PJ fails to do that. Moria in the book is a growing sense of dread and creepiness- from the unknown thing tapping in the well to the discovery of Balins tomb, the ominous book, the build up of the Beater of the Drums and the draining off Gandalfs strength and power and then the final attempt to flee while pursued culminating in the ultimate confrontation and loss.
As has been pointed out by others PJ's version is not a creeping dread, or a cranking up of tension, its just a series of action sequences one after the other.

well personally I feel a bit sorry for those who cant appreciate the magnificence of LOTR, its been such a positive and lovely addition to my life over the years, its given me great inspiration and every time I watch them it makes me sigh in happy anticipation. The few who cant just take them for superior entertainment is a bit baffling. I understand to some extent the concerns but they just seem so niggling and small and not justified from what I am watching . they are superior films in every way and that includes every aspect. I have just as much love of Tolkien as the nay sayers and my sensibilities are just as acute as anybody elses. but yeah, each to their own.

The few who cant just take them for superior entertainment is a bit baffling.- Figg

Thats simple- I dont see them as superior entertainment. I see them as deeply flawed (occasionally disastrously so).

Mrs Figg wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:There is no big troll fight- the orc fight is a skirmish, Frodo is stabbed by an orc chieftain there are no stairs collapsing and no dwarf tossing jokes.

Its completely different in the book- the troll doesn't get in, the Beater of the Drums is confronted by Gandalf -they have a magic spell off with Gandalf shutting the door an the Balrog opening it and the whole thing goes boom under the strain- exhausting Gandalf and sending him flying backwards down the stairs.
The film does not have the trap the orcs sprung being ruined by the orcs finding themselves on the wrong side of the fire fissures and in a visual I was really looking forward to but PJ ddnt bother with we dont see the trolls coming with slabs of stone to bridge the chasms over the fires and let the orcs spew across.

So how exactly is most of it in the book?

you do understand the concept of cinematic adaptation don't you? The main events are all in there but adapted visually and that means a sprinkling of spectacle amongst the original story. The ideas are all there and a casual observer would get a damn good idea of what happened in the book. It was handled extremely well, was visually exciting and did what it said on the tin. you moaning Minnie!

Uh...one could argue the same things for the hobbit movies.

OFF WITH HIS HEAD !