'The Battle of the Five Armies' in theatres | SPOILERS

I loved how perfectly Eldo emulated a grumpy old man.

It was also interesting to hear the people of Lake-town playing the Erebor theme on those big horns at the end of the movie. I think that's the first time in any Middle-earth movie that a musical theme has passed from non-diegetic to the diegetic.

During the Mumakil charge, one of the Haradrim played the first notes of the Gondor theme on his horn.

Eldo wrote: I suspect that in 10-15 years, some teens and twenty-somethings who are too young now to have really paid attention to the movies will argue that there isn't really a big difference in quality between LOTR and TH, just like some people currently argue that about the Star Wars prequels. I hope that I will be able to engage in such discussions with grace and not just be an obnoxious grumpy old man.

I think that's a very good point. As time passes these movies will mature and ferment differently in different minds, and there's no telling what they may become.

There's no doubt they're cheesy, but will fermentation give us a noble cheesiness, or just putrid rottenness? (what the Fjordlanders call gammelost )

They could very well be mostly forgotten in time, or become classics of campiness like "Waterworld" that live on. Who can tell?

Petty and I will never agree on Bakshi's LotR primarily because of who were and what we were expecting when we saw it. These are things I'll be thinking about when I watch Bo5A tonight.....

halfwise wrote:

It was also interesting to hear the people of Lake-town playing the Erebor theme on those big horns at the end of the movie. I think that's the first time in any Middle-earth movie that a musical theme has passed from non-diegetic to the diegetic.

During the Mumakil charge, one of the Haradrim played the first notes of the Gondor theme on his horn.

I just watched that scene again and I honestly don't hear it.

Sorry, it's the Rohan theme, not the Gondor theme.

Halfy, you're gonna have to post a link for me or give me a time code, because I just don't think it's there.

Thanks for the kind words guys.  I'm glad you enjoyed my "review".

I wasn't sure if I would actually want to see BOFA again, but I'm feeling now that I'd like to do a second viewing (as I did with AUJ and DOS) to help get my thoughts more in order.  I plan on going with my dad and brother this time around, though, so it could be a week or two before all our schedules align for that.  I'm not sure how much it will effect my opinion of the film though.  What I keep coming back to most is how devoid of its own identity this film is.  It could have been nothing but 10/10 scenes and it would still be disappointing because it's merely the final act to a story that already dropped the ball at numerous earlier points. This was true of DOS too, but the tone and pacing there were such a jump from AUJ that it felt different in its own way, at least on a first watch. BOFA largely feels like more of the same. The scope of the battle is clearly the main selling point of the film and is also the main thing that distinguishes this film from the first two, but I wasn't really sold on it, mainly because the emotional groundwork hadn't been laid for me to care about what was happening to the characters.

On the matter of endings, I will say that I have always enjoyed the final bit of ROTK and struggle to wrap my mind around the criticisms of it.  I've talked about this with my brother as well as people online, and I get that it's largely a matter of personal taste, but I don't want the conclusion to a 12 hour story to be wrapped up in five minutes.  There are really four places where the film could have stopped with minimal editing, and I think the filmmakers made the right choice.

1. The long fade to black after Frodo and Sam's "end of all things" conversation on the slopes of Mount Doom.  PJ made the fade so long so that people would wonder if that was the end of the movie, and it certainly would have been the ballsiest way to end it, but I don't think it would have been satisfying.  For one, it would imply that Frodo and Sam died, which casts a very different light on things, and two, it completely shortchanges all of the other characters.  If PJ had taken a Frodo-only approach like Rankin/Bass that wouldn't be a big deal, but the vast cast is a big part of the appeal of LOTR, even moreso in the movies where Frodo's role is diminished.
   
2. The "you bow to no one" line after Aragorn's coronation.  This is probably the most popular proposed ending point.  It establishes that most of the characters survived and gives a very brief glimpse of what sort of people they've become as a result of their experiences, and it allows for a "getting the gang back together" moment which tends to be effective in stories where the cast fragments over time.  However, I think that the Hobbits' return to the Shire is a crucial part of the story, and even though PJ didn't include the Scouring, he did at least try to cover some of the same thematic ground.
   
3. When Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, etc. sail off on the "last ship".  This is not a very popular proposed ending point in my experience. In a more conventional film, the film would have ended on the high note of Aragorn's coronation, which would have made for a pretty typical five minutes of denouement/reuniting before the credits rolled.  But the scenes in the Shire after the Hobbits' return are tinged with melancholy, and are very slow and contemplative. Having any scene like this is a risky enough move in an action/adventure blockbuster, but putting it at the very end is extremely unconventional so I'm not surprised that it attracted so much negativity.  But LOTR is not a conventional story, and even a watered-down version like the films would be greatly diminished by concluding with a short, happy ending.
   
4. Sam's line: "well, I'm back". Famously the last line of the book, this is where the films themselves concluded.  It adds less than a minute after the Grey Havens scene, but even people who accepted the post-denouement denouement of the Shire scenes was probably expecting the big farewell to be the ending, so this addition is a little bigger than the running time suggests.  Still, the line is a significant one, and I think it really drives home some of the thematic points.  It also reintroduces a note of hope in an otherwise pretty depressing conclusion to Frodo's story, so I'm glad they went the whole way with this.
   

I don't really mind endings that "wrap everything up in a neat bow", but I don't think that's what LOTR did.  The book only does this if you read the Appendices and see all the stuff about Sam being Mayor and Rosie pumping out kids non-stop and Merry writing botanical treatises on pipe-weed.  The main narrative winds down from the heights of epic action and politics in a mirror of the first part of Fellowship until it gradually becomes simply the story of a couple of Hobbit friends walking around in the Shire.  The Scouring of the Shire, far from wrapping things up, actually introduces a raft of new questions and issues, and while I think PJ was wrong to dismiss the Scouring out of hand, he did portray some of the same internal character themes that were present in the final part of the book.  Other than Aragorn's coronation, Sam's wedding to Rosie, and the last ship, we don't really see what happened to any of the characters, although they had filmed epilogue type scenes for Legolas and Gimli and possibly others.

Like I said, I don't really mind endings that do spell out what happens to everyone later on.  Large-scale storytelling like LOTR attracts a lot of people because of the large cast, and while the narrative demands of a climax don't allow for everyone to play a key role, I think it's a nice touch to get to revisit the supporting characters one last time before the end.  One of my favorite anime series, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood devoted an entire episode after the finale to tying up loose ends and depicting in broad strokes the future course of the characters' lives.  This was of course controversial among fans, and I understand the arguments against it.  Certainly this sort of epilogue can be done wrong (I roll my eyes at the Harry Potter epilogue as much as anyone), and it does give a very different feeling from your standard narrative ending.  That's the reason why Tolkien decided against including the epilogue he wrote for LOTR in the finished book.  But I don't dismiss the idea of the epilogue out of hand, because I definitely see the appeal in it.

As for BOFA, I kind of don't want to comment on the denouement, because I'm pretty sure it's going to be significantly longer in the EE, but judging the theatrical cut on its own merits, I was disappointed at the lack of conclusion, especially for the dwarves and Dain and Bard.  They could have given some indication of what happened without going into a full-blown epilogue.  Although I've always loved the conclusion of the novel, with Bilbo being visited by Gandalf and Balin.  I actually thought this might happen since Balin was given such prominence in the films, but I understand why it wasn't (in order to play up the LOTR connection).  I can't even get mad about the unnecessary LOTR tie-ins at this point, although I kinda feel like spending 5-10 minutes with old!Bilbo and Frodo in AUJ (considering how much that slowed down the start of the film) was made even more pointless by not being mentioned at all for the next nine hours of movie time until the final 30 seconds of the last film.  Talk about a lack of payoff.

Thanks for the reviews Eldo,Tin and Bungo and everyone else.

It sounds like there are some positives with this installment of the movies. Glad to hear it.
I haven't heard much about them or seen them but the wereworm thingies made me think of the fall of Gondolin.
I don't like the sound of a weak and feeble Galadriel much. But her character has sucked so far in TH movies so it shouldn't surprise me.

For a group of writers who wanted to put more female energy into the tale they sure dropped the ball with her.

I mean really, better to not have her at all, but if you're going to use her do something good. For me she is a powerful character and one of my favorite based upon the books JRR wrote.
They could have added something very cool to the movie given this chance to completely fabricate whatever their vision gave them.

Sounds like they didn't do much with the potential given them.

I suppose I will not be going to see BoFA. I haven't donated any of my Green to PJ and Co. since LotR DVD's and I don't think I will change that streak now. I saw the past two installments of TH because my son worked at a theater which allowed family in free.

I suppose I will wait until the World famous Petty's edits or I can borrow someones DVD. If a chance offers itself to see it free I would go,to get closure I suppose but I will not strive or move toward that possibility. If it falls in my lap I will go.

I anticipate Petty's review. It has become part of the holiday season tradition the past few sun cycles.

Always a pleasure to browse through and see the current thoughts of the faithful. Happy Happy Joy Joy in the season and in the new year ahead. Peace to one and all.

Well I saw it tonight.

I can't believe they killed the poor moose!

I eagerly await your analysis of the color palette, Dave!

And MOTA, don't think you can get out of seeing and reviewing the film that easily.

Eldorion wrote:I eagerly await your analysis of the color palette, Dave!

Well,...that WAS a really sweet little grey pony Bilbo was riding for the first part of the return journey.

As for the rest of the movie, let me sleep on it.  I'll say that I was in an audience of about 35, and people were gasping in the right spots, laughing in the right spots, and sniffling/sobbing in the right spots. The Bilbo/ Thorin plot, while not exactly as in the book, was not short-changed and I felt was treated with respect. Consequently I guess I'm feeling more generous to PJ than I have in a very long time.....
Like I said, let me sleep on it and see if the mood passes....

I am going to watch it in 2 hours time.


The loins are girded.

Eldorion wrote:On the matter of endings, I will say that I have always enjoyed the final bit of ROTK and struggle to wrap my mind around the criticisms of it.  I've talked about this with my brother as well as people online, and I get that it's largely a matter of personal taste, but I don't want the conclusion to a 12 hour story to be wrapped up in five minutes.  There are really four places where the film could have stopped with minimal editing, and I think the filmmakers made the right choice.

1. The long fade to black after Frodo and Sam's "end of all things" conversation on the slopes of Mount Doom.  PJ made the fade so long so that people would wonder if that was the end of the movie, and it certainly would have been the ballsiest way to end it, but I don't think it would have been satisfying.  For one, it would imply that Frodo and Sam died, which casts a very different light on things, and two, it completely shortchanges all of the other characters.  If PJ had taken a Frodo-only approach like Rankin/Bass that wouldn't be a big deal, but the vast cast is a big part of the appeal of LOTR, even moreso in the movies where Frodo's role is diminished.
   
2. The "you bow to no one" line after Aragorn's coronation.  This is probably the most popular proposed ending point.  It establishes that most of the characters survived and gives a very brief glimpse of what sort of people they've become as a result of their experiences, and it allows for a "getting the gang back together" moment which tends to be effective in stories where the cast fragments over time.  However, I think that the Hobbits' return to the Shire is a crucial part of the story, and even though PJ didn't include the Scouring, he did at least try to cover some of the same thematic ground.
   
3. When Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, etc. sail off on the "last ship".  This is not a very popular proposed ending point in my experience. In a more conventional film, the film would have ended on the high note of Aragorn's coronation, which would have made for a pretty typical five minutes of denouement/reuniting before the credits rolled.  But the scenes in the Shire after the Hobbits' return are tinged with melancholy, and are very slow and contemplative. Having any scene like this is a risky enough move in an action/adventure blockbuster, but putting it at the very end is extremely unconventional so I'm not surprised that it attracted so much negativity.  But LOTR is not a conventional story, and even a watered-down version like the films would be greatly diminished by concluding with a short, happy ending.
   
4. Sam's line: "well, I'm back". Famously the last line of the book, this is where the films themselves concluded.  It adds less than a minute after the Grey Havens scene, but even people who accepted the post-denouement denouement of the Shire scenes was probably expecting the big farewell to be the ending, so this addition is a little bigger than the running time suggests.  Still, the line is a significant one, and I think it really drives home some of the thematic points.  It also reintroduces a note of hope in an otherwise pretty depressing conclusion to Frodo's story, so I'm glad they went the whole way with this.
   

I don't really mind endings that "wrap everything up in a neat bow", but I don't think that's what LOTR did.  The book only does this if you read the Appendices and see all the stuff about Sam being Mayor and Rosie pumping out kids non-stop and Merry writing botanical treatises on pipe-weed.  The main narrative winds down from the heights of epic action and politics in a mirror of the first part of Fellowship until it gradually becomes simply the story of a couple of Hobbit friends walking around in the Shire.  The Scouring of the Shire, far from wrapping things up, actually introduces a raft of new questions and issues, and while I think PJ was wrong to dismiss the Scouring out of hand, he did portray some of the same internal character themes that were present in the final part of the book.  Other than Aragorn's coronation, Sam's wedding to Rosie, and the last ship, we don't really see what happened to any of the characters, although they had filmed epilogue type scenes for Legolas and Gimli and possibly others.

Like I said, I don't really mind endings that do spell out what happens to everyone later on.  Large-scale storytelling like LOTR attracts a lot of people because of the large cast, and while the narrative demands of a climax don't allow for everyone to play a key role, I think it's a nice touch to get to revisit the supporting characters one last time before the end.  One of my favorite anime series, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood devoted an entire episode after the finale to tying up loose ends and depicting in broad strokes the future course of the characters' lives.  This was of course controversial among fans, and I understand the arguments against it.  Certainly this sort of epilogue can be done wrong (I roll my eyes at the Harry Potter epilogue as much as anyone), and it does give a very different feeling from your standard narrative ending.  That's the reason why Tolkien decided against including the epilogue he wrote for LOTR in the finished book.  But I don't dismiss the idea of the epilogue out of hand, because I definitely see the appeal in it.

As for BOFA, I kind of don't want to comment on the denouement, because I'm pretty sure it's going to be significantly longer in the EE, but judging the theatrical cut on its own merits, I was disappointed at the lack of conclusion, especially for the dwarves and Dain and Bard.  They could have given some indication of what happened without going into a full-blown epilogue.  Although I've always loved the conclusion of the novel, with Bilbo being visited by Gandalf and Balin.  I actually thought this might happen since Balin was given such prominence in the films, but I understand why it wasn't (in order to play up the LOTR connection).  I can't even get mad about the unnecessary LOTR tie-ins at this point, although I kinda feel like spending 5-10 minutes with old!Bilbo and Frodo in AUJ (considering how much that slowed down the start of the film) was made even more pointless by not being mentioned at all for the next nine hours of movie time until the final 30 seconds of the last film.  Talk about a lack of payoff.

I actually think the ending of ROTK was perfection. Ending it with Sam was bitter sweet. Sam deserved to have the final words.

Mrs Figg wrote:I am going to watch it in 2 hours time.


The loins are girded.

Looking forward to your review Figgs!

well I am back!

ok my overriding impression is meh! but I will try to expand on that.

btw we have been having micro earthquakes all day here, about 80 in total around 3-4 on the richter watsit, and youll never believe this but during the Legolas bridge extravaganza there was an earthquake and the whole building shook, we thought it was the film doing a super dooper sfx,

I liked the opening sequence with Smaug, if this had been the real deal I would have liked the way it looked. It was quite well done. edit out the master, Alfrid, the kids and Tauriel and it would be more or less like I imagined it.
The DooglyDoor section was utter pants from start to finish. Above all Galadriel looking utterly horrible, for what purpose I will never ever understand. In Fellowship at least she looked impressively attractive and scary as 'nuclear galadriel', this however was full on horror film, it didn't look like her, why would she look that twisted as her power grew, it doesn't make sense, and it really bugs me. Elrond and Saruman were a wasted opportunity and it was underwhelming and ugly.    
I liked that Martin Freeman had a few good moments, one or two scenes were visually interesting, but most of it I found boring and I felt my interest waning. I couldn't even muster up any crabbit for the long winded shenanigans during and after the main battle with Legolas Tauriel, kili and Fili. meh! The last section with Hobbiton was nice apart from the Southern hemisphere exotic birds tweeting in the background, it kind of screamed 'this is NZ'. So overall I was pretty bored and twitchy, and a few scened were ok, but seen them all before elsewhere. The Orc signalling system was like something straight out of GOT.

wheres Petty he is very quiet. too quiet.

the stuff I really didn't like are too numerous to mention.

so I will..
Hardly two seconds of Beorn.
Galadriel damsel in distress.
Noticing the acting rather than the actual characters.
Secondary character stealing the show (Balin) he was great.
Feast of Starlight music every single time Tauriel was with Kili.  
Legolas looking chunkier and please don't mention Aragorn.
Bad jokes about constipation.
da Ring da Ring da Ring.  
'Martin we would like a nice nose-twitch for the next shot' 'great!'. 'cut!'  

David H wrote:

Eldorion wrote:I eagerly await your analysis of the color palette, Dave!

Well,...that WAS a really sweet little grey pony Bilbo was riding for the first part of the return journey.

Okay... but what colour was this pony

Using words, I mean.

Yeah, when is Petty going to see the film, anyway? I hope he doesn't think he can escape Angmar and Sons and get out of his contract.

Elthir wrote:

David H wrote:

Eldorion wrote:I eagerly await your analysis of the color palette, Dave!

Well,...that WAS a really sweet little grey pony Bilbo was riding for the first part of the return journey.

Okay... but what colour was this pony

Using words, I mean.

If I were to say that his coat shone like silver, would that help?

Eldorion wrote:Yeah, when is Petty going to see the film, anyway? I hope he doesn't think he can escape Angmar and Sons and get out of his contract.

Remember Petty, we can do this the easy way, or we can do this the hard way.

Very good

where is he anyway? Petty I mean.

[quote="David H"]

Eldorion wrote::

I love how scared he looks...