Petty's Purist LotR Edits [4]

Good news, petty - finally watched your edit tonight Bad news - this turned out to be a lengthy post!


Got to say, the edit I watched this time was very different from the last one, and while there definitely are some improvements, I'd say you got a few things right in the previous edition that you seem to have doubled back on.
 
First things first: The intro is excellent, you've done some really great editing here. Bilbo's introduction to the story, Thorin's entrance, and of course the entire Bag End sequence. It's been so long since I've seen AUJ now that I don't remember how these scenes play out in Jackson's cut, but I think that's a good thing, because it allowed me to watch your edit from a different point of view this time - I could actually notice where things worked even if a few shots were omitted, and also when scenes didn't work as well because scenes leading up to them had been cut. Bag End worked perfectly. I’ve got a few minor things I could point out, but the only one I’ll mention here is Gandalf’s very dramatic «he’s here» - can this highly cringeworthy comment be cut too? Is it possible to go from «knock knock» to the door being opened?

I didn’t notice any big changes to the troll scene, which I thought worked fine. I noticed you had cut the scene where Balin tells the story of Thorin’s heroic efforts outside Moria – I can see why you did that, but I still sort of like Balin in that scene, he’s a good storyteller if nothing else can be said about that scene But I can see how that scene supports the idea that this is Thorin’s adventure, not Bilbo’s, so I guess it has to go.
Radagast is back in – why?! Obviously you’ve done what you could, but that scene in his house is still terrible, and so are all the rest of his appearances. I’m guessing you’re trying to prepare the edit for the last film, where you likely will be forced to incorporate that part of the story, but if it turns out you don’t have to, I’d say lose all Radagast scenes, and all Galadriel scenes if you can.

Which brings me to Rivendell – Galadriel’s slow mo is something I’ve commented many times before, and I’ll try not to repeat myself. But is it possible to skip directly from Saruman greeting Gandalf to them sitting around the table? I don’t see why it should be necessary to include an introduction of Galadriel prior to this scene, we know she’s in the White Council anyway. And it is a f&%ing terrible introduction. I liked the scenes where Bilbo explores Rivendell and has a little chat with Elrond (haven’t seen this one before), but it felt a tad misplaced. Not saying you should remove it, but it does interrupt the flow a little the way it’s placed in your edit now.
Stone giants and Goblin Town has been covered before, but I noticed something this time that I don’t think I did the last time – when Bilbo tries to leave them in the cave, he does this because Thorin does not accept him. There are still traces of Thorin's scorn left in your edit, but something must have been cut because it felt really odd that Bilbo should decide to leave them there. Like I mentioned above, it’s been so long since I’ve watched AUJ that I noticed both the scenes that worked and those that didn’t this time, and I thought this one didn’t work very well. There simply is no good reason for Bilbo to leave. Other than that: The Over hill and under hill part is as good as it can possibly get with the available material, don’t change it

I can see you’ve decided to remove the AUJ ending (I believe I suggested this myself), and while I’m glad to see it go, it did make the transition from the rescue to the chase to Beorn’s very abrupt. I’m not sure if there is any good solution to this. Either the AUJ ending has to be put back in, or you could simply fade to black after the eagles leave and fade back in at Beorn’s, right before they’re introduced. There’s some dialogue that makes this a bad choice, however, like Gandalf saying they’ve spent the night there. That said, I liked the Beorn sequence alot better now, especially with the added material from the EE.

Mirkwood gets some much needed extra material from the EE, which is great. I did, however, like Gandalf’s exit in your previous edit much better than his exit in this one. I understand how this is part of your attempt to put the Dol Guldur storyline back in, but it doesn’t change the fact that those scenes were a bad idea from the get-go. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens in the third film, and how «editable» it will be. As to Thorin’s meeting with Thranduil – without the prologue from AUJ Thorin’s «no honor» remark seems to come from nowhere, and as a viewer you don’t really understand where his anger is coming from. Is it possible to cut the scene after Thranduil offers his help, fade, then fade back in with Thorin being dragged to his cell and telling the others how he told Thranduil to urgubug himself? That comment is a sufficient explanation as to how that offer was received, and you won’t have to deal with the confusion that arises from omitting the prologue.

The escape from Mirkwood, the introduction of Bard (no silliness there, nice work) and Laketown were all great. And I got to say, the way you’ve managed to lose the entire battle is just fantastic. I was also thrilled to see that the «you have keen eyes» comment was removed Alot of the EE scenes really did wonders for the pacing of the film, which was sorely needed (it was also fun seeing most of them for the first time). Smaug vs Bilbo is perfect, no comment

Long story short: There were a number of scenes in this version that I would never have expected to see in a purist edit, but at the same time I can see why they’re there. I’d still like to see most of them go, but that depends heavily on the last film. This was a nice warm-up for Bot5A, and I’ll keep my eyes open for good scenes!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I couldn't agree more. If I had to say why I thought they left it out my answer would be PJ keeps everything incredibly simple, black and white, no grey (which is ironic in Mirkwood).
So in PJ's simple narrative Mirkwood has to be dark and dangerous, or light and elvish. It cant have both.
And as he has the spiders and he made the Necromancer the true big bad of the story it cant be light, or have anything whimsical or overly magical- it has to be dark, evil and oppressive all the time.

I think this is very accurate, but it's particularly ironic since they were talking up the Wood-elves being more wild and fey than the Eldar before DOS came out. It would have been nice to see that actually reflected in the film somehow. And now we've got Thranduil leading a High Elven army that looks like they got lost on their way to joining up with the Last Alliance.

Hi Petty and folks! I've been really busy lately, but I did find time to download and watch the new edit last night.

Overall, it's amazingly watchable now! I plan to watch it again before I drag myself to the theater for Bo5A. I'm hoping that will help me anchor PJ's story back into Tolkien's, rather than the mess that PJ made.

Some quick comments, mostly on pacing:

First, unlike Ringo I still can't stand the "Lay down your arms or we'll rip his off!" part of the Troll scene. It makes no sense at all. It makes me want to throw rotten vegetables.
It's probably not possible to cut from the 'battle' directly to 'dwarves-on-a-spit' implying they'd been captured, but it would be so much, much better if you could.

Next, the transition from Fire to Eagles is a bit imbalanced. They're actually both very good images, but the sense of danger in the fire scene ought to be greater (longer, brighter, louder, hotter, whatever) so that the rescue is more meaningful and carries more punch, like the lava/eagle rescue in RotK. Otherwise, as much as I love the eagle soaring scene, it ought to be trimmed to keep it in balance.

The transition between movies is jarringly rough as it stands now. There needs to be something added in there, even if it's just a long fade to black. Ideally there's a way you can suggest a moment of the company catching their breath as they reach the top of the Carrock, and then something to suggest their decent. To suddenly cut from soaring vistas to Bilbo's head popping up just doesn't work eithe visually or narratively.

Beorn was much better. This is the first I'd seen of the introduction of the dwarves, and of the danger in Beorn. It adds a lot to the story. The series of dissolves in Mirkwood helps the pacing a lot too. One thing: could you maybe add a couple of fades-to-black to suggest the passage of a little more time? I'd suggest just before the "we found the bridge!" line so it doesn't feel like this is just a few hours after parting with Gandalf. Also, a little more time after Thorin's line about "we make our own luck". Mirkwood needs a sense of time being suspended, and that can't be rushed.

The whole Bard and Laketown part needs some smoothing out, but I was surprised how nicely it actually worked with all the rubbish removed. It just goes to show that there was some real craftsmanship which went into the design of these movies, whatever indignities they've suffered since.

Smaug and Bilbo is quite good now too, now that all the silliness has been removed. This edit has actually restored some of my enthusiasm for going in to town and watching Bo5A when it comes out, if only to see what new footage will be available for the next edit!

"This edit has actually restored some of my enthusiasm for going in to town and watching Bo5A when it comes out, if only to see what new footage will be available for the next edit!" - David

Agreed And I actually was annoyed by that arm-ripping talk But I guess it didn't bother me so much that it stuck in my mind long enough to write it down after I'd watched the edit

Thanks Ringo and Dave.

In reply to your thoughts-

'Gandalf’s very dramatic «he’s here» - can this highly cringeworthy comment be cut too? Is it possible to go from «knock knock» to the door being opened?'- Ringdrotten

Short answer is I dont know, as it hadn't occurred to me to cut that particular line. But I can have a go.

'I still sort of like Balin in that scene, he’s a good storyteller if nothing else can be said about that scene'- Ringdrotten

Balin is the best realized of the dwarves in my opinion, and thats in no small part down tot he actor. But the scene shifts focus to Bilbo and I wanted nothing that hinted at Azog as I am now using him as Bolg who chases them from the mountains to the eagles and who leads the assault on the Lonely Mt (I hope I can anyway). This is a late idea so there will be actually a bit more of 'Azog' in the next cut- but just as the featured orc who chases them from the mountains.

'Radagast is back in – why?!'- Ringdrotten

You pretty much answer this one yourself- its because I figured I wouldn't be able to just edit out the resolution as I am sure it will play into events in the final film- its there because I fear it will have to be to make a coherent story as PJ is doing it. So I tried o reduce it to the least of evils by having the minimum Radagast/Dol Guldur stuff I could get away with.
However if after seeing the final film it seems possible to do without the subplot entirely then I will be editing it right back out.
'
'is it possible to skip directly from Saruman greeting Gandalf to them sitting around the table?'

The problem here is that having cut the bulk of the Council I am already shot on footage to give it the length to feel lie a proper scene. But if it turns out I can cut the subplot this will be going anyway and the scene will end right after the introduction of Saruman.

'but it felt a tad misplaced. Not saying you should remove it, but it does interrupt the flow'

I agree entirely. Finding somewhere to put that scene is proving quite a pain in the arse however, but I am working on it (weirdly structuring the scenes in Rivendell for FotR proved just as troublesome if you recall).

" There simply is no good reason for Bilbo to leave. "- Ringdrotten

Mmm, I hadnt really thought about this. There is the scene with Elrond in Rivendell where he says he doesnt feel the dwarves want him on the quest, and Elrond offers to let him stay at Rivendell.
And there is still Thorin being scoffing at the start. Plus it helps set up the theme of home which is needed otherwise the scene just before the eagles when Bilbo goes on about helping them get their home back would feel out the blue.
I'll need to think on this one.

'I’m not sure if there is any good solution to this. Either the AUJ ending has to be put back in, or you could simply fade to black '- Ringdrotten

'the transition from Fire to Eagles is a bit imbalanced....it ought to be trimmed to keep it in balance.'
'The transition between movies is jarringly rough as it stands now.' - Dave

This in part comes down to how much material I get form the last film.
The plan is to have two films. In which case I will restore a variation on the ending of AUJ, and the second film will start where I have the DOS edit currently start- that will take care of the transition.
Dave d you mean i should trim the shots of the eagles flying away with them?
I plan to feature Azog a bit more in these shots- not with dialogue, but just as the leader oft hose orcs.
That might give me a few more shots to help the 'longer, brighter, louder, hotter'

'As to Thorin’s meeting with Thranduil – without the prologue from AUJ Thorin’s «no honor» remark seems to come from nowhere, and as a viewer you don’t really understand where his anger is coming from.'- Ringdrotten

He has voiced a dislike for elves before, and he does say just before that about the elves not coming to the dwarves aid when the dragon came.
However your suggestion of cutting away and just having him tell Balin he refused to deal might work better- I will give that a try. The trick will be finding a suitable moment before that in the conversation to make the cut away.

'could you maybe add a couple of fades-to-black to suggest the passage of a little more time?'- Dave

I will give that a try. One thing I really missed and PJ could have had without losing his keep everything evil would have been a transition to them walking in daylight to night with all the eyes coming out in the dark around them, then back into day again. That would be quick, simple creepy and effective way to show they were in there at least more than a day. As PJ has it it all looks like it takes place in one long march.

'The whole Bard and Laketown part needs some smoothing out'

Which bits? There are a limit on shots I can use at the entry bit as in PJ's the dwarves are all in barrels, whereas in my edit there is no reason for them to hide. So I cant use a lot of shots that clearly show the boat with no dwarves visible. Or was it later bits in the sequence you were thinking of?


Thanks again both of you for watching and commenting- its incredibly helpful to get the feedback and different perspectives.

Dave

"Mmm, I hadnt really thought about this. There is the scene with Elrond in Rivendell where he says he doesnt feel the dwarves want him on the quest, and Elrond offers to let him stay at Rivendell.
And there is still Thorin being scoffing at the start. Plus it helps set up the theme of home which is needed otherwise the scene just before the eagles when Bilbo goes on about helping them get their home back would feel out the blue.
I'll need to think on this one." - Petty

Could be I wasn't paying enough attention, and as neither Dave nor Blue commented this perhaps it isn't such a big deal anyway. It just occured to me when I watched the scene that Bilbo hasn't been that badly treated, at least not enough to make him want to leave them at that point. Just keep it the way it is for now and if I feel the same way the next time I watch it I'll let you know

Its a great pity PJ wasted time on a big troll fight, and on Radagast, when he could have spent it showing how miserable Bilbo was going about home being scoffed at or ignored by dwarves, how bad the weather was, and had a bit of action in the flood bit crossing the river, and then Bilbo, cold wet and miserable but with a spark of Took awakening determined to prove himself a thief and that moment in the cave would have been set up properly and earned in the narrative.

It's a damn shame he was let near the project at all

Right- been doing some editing.

I have decided it will be two films. An Unexpected Journey and The Desolation of Smaug.

The split will be where AUJ ended which is 1hr 26 minutes for the purist edit.

The main reason for this is I cant see a way to bridge the gap smoothly between the end of AUJ and the opening of DOS. It also means the original ending of AUJ is restored showing the Lonely Mt.

Quite a few changes throughout.

No flashback during the party scene.

No 'He's here' from Gandalf when Thorin arrives.

No cut to Radagast. He's gone.

Bilbo is no longer proactive in the troll scene. This restores Bilbo's development regards Gandalfs rescues as the book has them.
And afterwards when Thorin says them getting caught was "no thanks to your burglar" its now without rebuke from Gandalf- this is part of fixing the issue Ringdrotten raised of Bilbo wanting to leave not being justified.

Re-arranged Rivendell scenes to make them flow better. Removed WC entirely.

Removed Gandalf/Galadriel scene talking about Bilbo.

Added in a dangling Bilbo shot! This comes at the end of the storm giants bit and is there for two reasons, it makes the finding of the cave far less abrupt and it lets Thorin say his bit about how Bilbo should not have come along. Again playing into the next scene in the cave when Bilbo decides to leave.

Tidied up a few brief shots when they are climbing the tress so as not to give away the fact they are all different trees.

Added in some shots of Azog, now in the role of Bolg the orc leading the pursuit after them from the Goblin Caves. The main reason for this was it allowed me to extend the tress/fire sequence by a few shots to try to give it more colour and length as David suggested.
And he will feature in the final film so may as well put him in now in a role that at least makes some sense.

I think thats everything but probably forgotten something.

Azog? please dont add Azog. glad you ditched Radagast and the WC though.

Hes isnt in it as Azog.
He doesnt make an appearence until the end at the trees. And he gets about four shots all in, he is just the orc leading the orcs that pursue them for the Misty Mountains.
A bit like how the one who shot Boromir was the 'featured orc' without having a big presence, he was just the one in charge.

oh I get it.

Interesting! Splitting them at the end of AUJ seems like a very good solution to the abrupt transition from AUJ to DOS. Looking forward to watching it

Mrs Figg wrote:Dave

Pettytyrant101 wrote:


'the transition from Fire to Eagles is a bit imbalanced....it ought to be trimmed to keep it in balance.'
'The transition between movies is jarringly rough as it stands now.' - Dave

This in part comes down to how much material I get form the last film.
The plan is to have two films. In which case I will restore a variation on the ending of AUJ, and the second film will start where I have the DOS edit currently start- that will take care of the transition.

That sounds like a good idea. The footage you have to work with has been pre- selected to build to a climax and resolution there, so why not work with it, right?

Dave d you mean i should trim the shots of the eagles flying away with them?
I plan to feature Azog a bit more in these shots- not with dialogue, but just as the leader oft hose orcs.
That might give me a few more shots to help the 'longer, brighter, louder, hotter'

I'd hate to lose any of the eagles soaring or the soundtrack that goes with them, but the scene really speaks to being snatched from certain death at the last second, so the scene before needs to put the fear into the audience, or it'll just feel like taking a gratuitous joyride on a big bird (not a bad thing really, the kind of thing PJ loves to do, it's just not good storytelling.)  It might be interesting to compare the ratio of time-surrounded-by-lava/eagle-time in LotR to the ratio of trees-burning/ eagle-time in AUJ.  I think even in the books it's easy to think of the eagles as dangerous ME angels snatching lost souls from the gates of hell to their salvation.  PJ seems to get that. Nice to keep it if you can.

'could you maybe add a couple of fades-to-black to suggest the passage of a little more time?'- Dave

I will give that a try. One thing I really missed and PJ could have had without losing his keep everything evil would have been a transition to them walking in daylight to night with all the eyes coming out in the dark around them, then back into day again. That would be quick, simple creepy and effective way to show they were in there at least more than a day. As PJ has it it all looks like it takes place in one long march.

Yeah, eyes in the dark would be cool!

'The whole Bard and Laketown part needs some smoothing out'

Which bits? There are a limit on shots I can use at the entry bit as in PJ's the dwarves are all in barrels, whereas in my edit there is no reason for them to hide. So I cant use a lot of shots that clearly show the boat with no dwarves visible. Or was it later bits in the sequence you were thinking of?

I just watched that bit again. Visually it's not too rough with the sound off, but listening to it, you get a couple bars of soundtrack, then a couple more bars, then one line of dialog, then another couple bars of music. It's too choppy with the sound on.
What's really missing is a solid introduction to Bard. It really ought to be something with enough dialog to cement him into your mind right at the beginning (for the same reason that the new Beorn intro helps the pacing so much). After that, a travel montage would be fine.

 

Thanks again both of you for watching and commenting- its incredibly helpful to get the feedback and different perspectives.

My pleasure!


[/quote]

The latest version of the edit is up- as Ive split it into two films so far AUJ is the only one up.
Its in the folder AUJStandard.

If you've already seen the previous version like Dave and Ringdrotten and only want to check out the changes see the list above for where to look.

This is easily the most 'purist' of the cuts so far.

Its only 1hr 26 minutes long so wont take up too much of your time to give it a go.
As always any feedback good and bad is most welcome.

Ok more than halfway thrrough the reedit of DOS.

Ive smoothed the intro as I can now use the title screen instead of avoiding it.
And Ive removed the Necromancer references between Gandalf and Beorn.
No Necro stuff when Gandalf leaves at Mirkwood either- thats restored to much as I had it before as per Ringdrottens recommendation.
And I have included several fade to blacks in Mirkwood to try to better convey passage of time as Dave suggested (PJ used crossfades throughout Mirkwood- the only place he uses them I think but they are not perhaps as effective at indicating time passing).

Ringdrotten I tired removing Thorin outburst but it meant losing one of the few bits of actual dialogue from the book in the films that Thranduil says afterwards, but more crucially there is great big musical crescendo that plays right in to the next scene in the cells and I couldn't get a cut to work without being really choppy- so it has to stay I am afraid.

David- getting to Bards intro soon. When you said he needs abetter introduction do you mean I should leave more of the original intro- I cut it because it didn't seem to serve a purpose- all the information he gives about family can be got from just seeing them when they arrive. And I disliked the idea he was for hire.
But do you feel it needs that scene restored?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

David- getting to Bards intro soon. When you said he needs abetter introduction do you mean I should leave more of the original intro- I cut it because it didn't seem to serve a purpose- all the information he gives about family can be got from just seeing them when they arrive. And I disliked the idea he was for hire.
But do you feel it needs that scene restored?

Bear in mind I've only watched this once in the theater when it first came out, and then again when you did your first and roughest cut, so I have been able to forget some of the worst of the movie.

That said, I think an intro does serve a purpose in the narrative.  In the book there are a series of characters that Bilbo meets on his journey, guides for good or evil, that are like signposts to the story arc, and I think each of these deserves some kind of an intro.

Bard is the signpost that marks the end of fleeing from the mountains and forests, and the beginning of the final stage of the quest.
He's a guide. He should have some kind of intro in my thinking.

Ok DOS is finished with the exception of smoothing the sound out on the intro to Laketown- got an idea there- and on whether or not to extend the introduction to Bard- thoughts on that last one?

With the Necro references gone and the black arrow launcher thing backstory gone too the running time for DOS is now a very slim 1hour 3 minutes.

So I reckon BOFA should round it up to be about film length. Assuming roughly an hour of usable footage from the last film (and that might be being hopeful) it gives a total running time for both films combined of about 3 and a half hours.

Thank for the extra thoughts David- I will try it with a longer intro and see how it works.

DOS edit is uploading. Probably not worth checking till morning though given the slow upload rates.

Not too many changes this time-

Smoother opening.

Cuts to Gandalf/Beorn conversation before they leave removing the Necromancer set up stuff.

Restored Gandalf leaving Mirkwood to way it was before, without Necro mentions.

Added fade to blacks throughout Mirkwood to denote passing of time.

Few minor sound tweaks during spider episode.

Smoothed sound issues at entry to Laketown.

Cut flashback scene to the black arrow ballista launcher.

Removed cut to Gandalf and Radagast entering dol Guldur.

I hate uploading!!

Nearly 11 hours later and its only at 73% uploaded

DOS is finally uploaded- enjoy.

Something I noticed in editing that I meant to mention and forgot (ever noticed how sometimes in order to remember something from last time you were drunk, you have to be just as drunk again? ) anyway what was I saying?

Ah yes. I think its unique to TH films as I dont remember it in the LotR's EE's. But there are some short scenes which are in the TH TE but not in the EE's.
DOS has two.
As they cut the introduction to Beorn from the TE it instead has, after he transforms at night, a shot of him walking into the house seen by Bilbo, who pretends to be asleep.
In the EE that doesn't happen, instead Bilbo gets up and Beorn is out chopping wood then the introduction scene happens.
In the purist edit the intro happens before they stay the night, so I got to include both versions.

Similar there is shot in Mirkwood in the TE, when they lose the path, the camera pans back from the dwarves and you see the path and the dwarves still looking for it in the distance.
For some reason they took this out of the EE.
Its not in the purist edit because I was at the wrong stage of drunkeness and forgot about it.

Just a bit of pointless info I'd thought I'd share, as its the sort of thing I probably would never have noticed had I not had to edit the bloody things into something watchable and recognizably TH.

Reuploading DOS. I wasn't entirely happy with the lat edit.
Added the film titles at the start which helps it feel like a film opening.

Smoothed out the opening scenes by having Bilbo (but not the audience) see Beorn before returning to the dwarves- that solved some sound issues.

Lots of smaller tweaks all the way through, mainly to smooth to sound issues.

Extended the two fades to black added in Mirkwood to give a greater impression of time passing between events.

Managed to add in a proper intro to Bard, whilst still avoiding all the stuff I needed to.

Extended the barge sequences to include the payment, which solved a sound issue and now fits with Bards intro.

Did some more tweaking of the entrance to Laketown.

On a technical matter I solved the issue of the weirdly large file size- the previous standard def version a was staggering 1.8gig for some reason. The new one is a much more manageable 607mb.

I feel this is now very close indeed to the complete version depending on feedback from folks.

So to those who havent watched them yet, and do not have personal moral objections to doing so, I would appreciate your thoughts and views.