Re: The Three Hunters ... more like the Three Strollers, amirite?

by azriel Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:54 pm

Dave wants pictures ? Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.

by David H Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:47 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Spoiler:

The Three Hunters ... more like the Three Strollers, amirite? - Page 3 Spock-illogical

by Eldorion Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:10 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well not my fault you misread the book and spent a whole evening working out a false premise now is it?!

Disproving a false premise, Petty! Using science. Nod

Edit: I do really appreciate your posts in this thread; I was really brief earlier cause I was typing on my phone during a break at work.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:48 pm

Its only false if you thought the three hunters performed some superhuman feat in the first place.
Thats what watching PJ will do to you! Evil or Very Mad

by halfwise Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:48 pm

azriel wrote:Can I have a fantasy ? If your dolling them out ? mrs Figg wants one, Id like one also.

I'm happy to be the fantasy for either of you two. Just give me an address and a time window. Nod

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:48 pm

Careful what you ask for Halfy! pale

by halfwise Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:49 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its only false if you thought the three hunters performed some superhuman feat in the first place.
Thats what watching PJ will do to you!

Oh let's be fair. Unless you do the math (fairly simple to do, but still a barrier) the way the book reads you are led to think it's a superhuman feat.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:52 pm

I always thought it was a good impressive deed, given one of them has the leg length of a dwarf, but I never got the impression it was supposed to be beyond normal peoples ability. They stop quite often in the book, they rest when its dark. If Tolkien had wanted the reader to think of it as superhuman they would have run nonstop.

And Eomers comments on it dont get the prominence in the text, it comes towards the end of the conversation and after Aragorn had been a lot more impressive.
And when Eomer says its the sort of deed should be celebrated I thought he meant the whole deed, not just the pursuit- the whole idea of chasing an entire orc pack for four days with little arms just to get two friends back.

by Eldorion Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:22 am

Well considering that...

- The reader has just met Eomer and he was suspicious of Aragorn at first
- Most people don't know how long a league is
- Most people have never walked that much in a single day and would find the idea intimidating
- A lot of people, especially kids, aren't thinking that deeply into a throw-away line

... it's not surprising that a lot of people just go with Eomer's reaction and don't really think about it in depth later on. I don't think it has much to do with PJ.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:29 am

Well its certainly not Tolkien's fault- he describes in detail a perfectly reasonable, but still impressive journey. Nod

by Norc Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:18 am

i don't see why petty's comment and ours can't co-exist. Sure the readers are much more like Eomer, impressed, and even though we busted them out that it isn't super human, like this japanese woman who ran, what over 600 km in like a day (?), it's still pretty impressive. But Petty do have a point. and also, maybe Tolkien wanted the readers to have that effect? maybe he wanted us to be impressed, even though, if u pull it apart, anyone could have done it.

or maybe it is like (petty?) pointed out, more the fact that three people were chasing a huge pack of orcs, wanting their friends back and really, it is a bit hopeless. Shrugging

i am glad our research at least made a good thread Very Happy

petty wrote:
Well not my fault you misread the book and spent a whole evening working out a false premise now is it?!

ok, we did not mis-spend an evening, jesus, when one wants to pull something apart scientifically and prove/disprove something, one has to start somewhere. and neither of us had any idea of how long they ran/strolled/jogged.

so. 216 km.. Nod

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:23 am

I heartily applaud your wasted evenings endeavours! I am just teasing. Very Happy

by Norc Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:26 am

hahaha, oh u funny ...

by Mrs Figg Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:40 pm

just reading the book, taking it at face value without actually calculating anything, I get the impression of an exhausting and superhuman feat. I get the impression they ran for many miles without hardly stopping and that only the superhuman abilities of Legolas and the determination of Aragorn and the toughness of Gimli forced them on. Because it was such a tremendous hike Eomer was amazed and impressed because he realized just how superhuman it all was. Thats the impression Tolkien wanted to give and thats the impression it does give. End of story. Whether in reality its not so SAS in the Falklands is another matter, and fun to determine.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:59 pm

I never got the impression of a superhuman feat so I can t agree. An impressive one in the circumstances yes, superhuman no.
Tolkien details their stops, rests and that the orcs are faster than them and always getting further away throughout.

I agree Tolkien wanted to give the impression Eomer was impressed however.
But for the reasons already discussed.

by azriel Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:55 pm

I used to think is this a wasted effort ? will they catch up with the Orcs or not ? will they be to late & have to resort to other tactics ? I dont think I was desperately over whelmed by their journey ? It was a feat yes but, I didnt gush & feel all "omg, what an epic !" But I can be very cynical at times & it often takes a lot to impress me. I think Ive turned a cheek at all the male showing off testosterone here in my home town, that its rubbed off & I often feel disinterested. You dont blind me with a flashy Porche you cant really handle.

by Mrs Figg Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:12 pm

Impressive or superhuman there is no difference. Its the same result.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:30 pm

Impressive is Ussain Bolt. Superhuman is Superman.

There is definitely a difference between the two.

by Radaghast Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:31 pm

Here's an alternate analysis of the Three Hunters' feat (from, of all places, TORN.com), which seems to calculate things differently than Eldo:

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=90207

A league is equal to 3 miles (4.8 km). So, 45 leagues is 135 miles (216 km)

Boromir's confrontation with Frodo happened in the morning of Feb. 26. The orcs probably attacked in the early afternoon, and then the Three Hunters prepared his funeral. They departed from the river shore in the evening (sunset/dusk).

They wandered in the Emyn Muil all night, resting briefly (less than an hour) before dawn. They overtake the first dead orcs (who had been killed the previous evening) at dawn. The orcs now are ~ 12 leagues (36 mi) out onto the plain. In the morning of the 27th, they find Pippin's brooch.

From dawn until evening, they covered the 12 leagues (with only two brief rests). They slept that night, until dawn. They covered another 12 leagues between dawn and dusk on the 28th. Again, they sleep until dawn.

At 11 AM on the 29th, they reached the spot where the orcs rested (36 hours behind them, now). At dusk, they reached the end of the downs. There, they rested again. Early in the morning of the 30th (yes, Feb. has 30 days!), they spot the Riders 5 leagues away, and wait for them.

So, for two days, they maintained a pace of 3 mi/hour (72 miles in 2 12 hr stretches). The other 63 miles were covered in the 12 hours of that first evening, and 12 hours of the last day (still, over 2.5 mi/hour). This was over rough terrain, while the other two days were over flat plains.

I must say, I'm impressed! They traveled 24 hours without rest (and that was after fighting orcs all afternoon). So, that was 36 hours without sleep. As for food, they did have the lembas, so they didn't have to stop to eat.

Aragorn and Gimli, at least, are thoroughly wiped out after pulling this stunt, but I think that Eomer is well within his rights to be shocked. For comparison, here are some Marathon Times
It seems that 4.5 - 5 hours is a reasonable amount of time for a marathon runner to spend running 26 miles. (These times are averages of people who finish the race, so they are all fit runners.) These runners are in the 5-6 mi/hour pace, but obviously they only maintain it for 5 hours (not 12...or 24!) [Though, this does offer further evidence that Aragorn had the body of a man half his age - 88 year olds don't do well in marathons, but 44 yr olds do!]

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:35 pm

More impressive than I thought if that is accurate (not to say Eldo's calculations are not, but for arguments sake) but still not in the superman category.

And I think lembas would be banned from marathons as an enhancing drug!

by Radaghast Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:39 pm

63mph in 12 hours is certainly impressive. Not sure if or how Eomer would know that, though.

by Eldorion Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:46 pm

Radaghast wrote:Here's an alternate analysis of the Three Hunters' feat (from, of all places, TORN.net), which seems to calculate things differently than Eldo:

TheOneRing.com is actually a totally different site than TORn, but they have a long and very impressive lore history there. Smile

Anyway, they go through the book to get a step-by-step timeline of the journey instead of making estimates of daylight, so there are different figures there. Norc and I didn't go through the account of the hunt page by page. The lack of sleep is definitely the most impressive part of the whole quest if correct, though I don't have the book in front of me to double-check right now.

Radaghast wrote:63mph in 12 hours is certainly impressive. Not sure if or how Eomer would know that, though.

I'm pretty sure the TORC writer said that it was 63 miles over 24 hours (the first and last 12 hour chunks of the chase). That fits the ~2.5 mph rate he mentions in the same sentence.

by azriel Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:13 pm

I think Aragorn being a lot older makes it more "good on yer" ! But we dont realise how old he is do we at this stage ? He comes across as a mature man, long in the wilderness so its expected he can be rugged, determined & keep trudging along. Legolas, as we know, is an Elf & I expect him to be able to keep the pace without so much as a blister & Gimli ? he's strong & stocky, may not be speedy but can keep the same methodic pace going for miles. So, I see 1 Forest Gump with blonde hair, 1 Forest Gump who hasnt shaved & 1 Forest Gump who short & smells of leather Laughing

by Radaghast Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Radaghast wrote:Here's an alternate analysis of the Three Hunters' feat (from, of all places, TORN.net), which seems to calculate things differently than Eldo:

TheOneRing.com is actually a totally different site than TORn, but they have a long and very impressive lore history there.

Oh, right, I keep confusing those two...

Radaghast wrote:
63mph in 12 hours is certainly impressive. Not sure if or how Eomer would know that, though.

I'm pretty sure the TORC writer said that it was 63 miles over 24 hours (the first and last 12 hour chunks of the chase). That fits the ~2.5 mph rate he mentions in the same sentence.

Whoops, my bad again.

by Norc Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:35 pm

Eldo's and Norc's calculations. i want credit too!