Hobbit Literary analysis podcast

Eldo - interesting that you bring up the divine origin of eucatastrophe. Olsen was making the argument all along that the entire Lonely Mountain journey had so many inexplicably lucky coincidences that it had to be divinely guided. Aside from the ones I have listed above, he even mentions being captured by the Goblins was necessary so that they could kill the Great Goblin and precipitate the war that finally brings all the free peoples together. I think this is stretching it, but that's what Olsen's response would be.

Typically though in any story the story is being told because it is unique and fantastic, like the Hobbit is. If using Olsen's argument, then everything Bilbo did throughout the story was imperative for the eucatastrophe to happen. But I feel like it's the same for every story, that every part and every situation has to happen in order for the climax to happen. This can be tested by removing or altering parts of the story and seeing if the changed story line also changes the climax. If not, then I would think that it's not a very important story.

{{{{{{{{{{{ hmmm, I may have just talked in a circle here... I don't even know what I'm saying. Oh bullocks.}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Yep, a story usually has to be unusual for it to be worth telling. There's a lot of modern writing where mundane things are just told very well (many of Hemingway's short stories are of this kind), but those aren't the kinds of things that survive in oral tradition.

I think Olsen makes the point for divine guidance better when talking about reading the moon characters on the map or discovering Orcrist and Glamdring. Other examples like finding their way through Mirkwood or bringing about the battle of 5 armies I think is taking the idea too far.

Nice little note from his lecture on Food in Middle Earth: you don't want to be a pony on the Quest for Erebor: the dwarve's pony's got eaten three times: by Trolls, Goblins and Smaug.

He also notes that the Elves always have bread and wine. Echoes of the communion eaten by those who have not suffered the Fall?

so the ponies were eaten? but .. in the film, they have no ponies from the troll thing.. what.. waaaait.... where did the ponies go? i thought they had ponies all the way too the goblins.

Didnt you read my book of the film of the book Norc?  I suggest you go read the relevant section and then you will know exactly the fate of the movie ponies.  

That's another thing from the Troll scene in the film which is stupid - the trolls take their ponies, so they should have a lot to eat. But as one of the trolls carries two ponies to the ones they've already got fenced in in their little campsite, one of the other trolls sitting by the campfire complains " Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey if it don't look like there'll be mutton again tomorrow" or something like that. They've got four or five horses - what are they going to with them, enter them for a race contest? Always nice to hear some dialogue from the book, but when Jackson fucks it up like that it just ruins it.

And where did that troll get those two ponies?- there are already ponies in the pen when it deposits them, but Kili, or Fili, say that only 2 are missing, and as they have that conversation right next to the rest of the ponies when they spot the troll carrying two more, how did it get them?
Stealth troll that can creep right past you within ten foot? Giant ghillie suit?

Didn't notice that.  Damn that's sloppy.
EDIT: both Ringrotten and Petty's notes on that scene.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:And where did that troll get those two ponies?- there are already ponies in the pen when it deposits them, but Kili, or Fili, say that only 2 are missing, and as they have that conversation right next to the rest of the ponies when they spot the troll carrying two more, how did it get them?
Stealth troll that can creep right past you within ten foot? Giant ghillie suit?

 

Didn't notice that.- Halfwise

Didnt you read the book of the film of the book either?!  

Did. But there were so many misplaced tidbits I couldn't keep track of all of them.

Thats just means you should read it again.  

Just did.  Neither you, nor I, or anyone except Ringrotten noticed the Trolls shouldn't be complaining about mutton today and tomorrow if they have a paddock full of ponies.  Or did they even say that in the movies?

and I remembered the pony carrying nonsense, I was just referring to what both you and RR pointed out as damn sloppy writing.

Just checked the film to be sure, they do say "mutton tomorrow" in the film as well, my paraphrasing of the line turned out to be pretty exact

Pretty good scoop, RR - I'm impressed you caught something that Petty missed despite all his editing.

Sorry to disappoint, but I didnt miss it.
There is an 'excuse' for it within the film script, the troll that says the mutton line is the really stupid one who is portrayed as not noticing the horses being brought in are not sheep. And he has to be corrected by the other troll "These aint sheep, they're nags" or words to that effect.
Its clumsy yes, its wrong for the book, yes, but its not technically a mistake within the film so did not make the grade for the parody mistakes.

True, he does say they're "nags", but that would have worked better if they hadn't already caught some. But I guess the writers are excused then

omg. this sort of thing is so fucking annoying! jesus..

Its still bloody stupid Ringdrotten, you are right about that, just not a true mistake as they cover their asses a bit on it, a very small bit.

So, uh, did the trolls eat the ponies in the book? I don't remember and I don't have my books with me at the moment.

The ponies were lost in the river while the dwarfs tried to cross it along with most of their supplies. the trolls had nothing to do what so ever with the ponies

Okay, I was pretty sure it didn't have anything to do with Trolls, but then I read one of Halfwise's posts about what Corey Olsen said and it sounded like he was ascribing the pony-eating to the trolls in the books. Whatever; I need to catch up on sleep.

Thanks Sin!

Not quite, Sinister. A couple of ponies were almost lost at that point, but it was the goblins that took the ponies when they captured the dwarves in the cave, and the ponies never left the mountain.