FREEDOM!!!! [2]

On the point of inward investment under the SNP-

"Today’s Ernst & Young report shows that Scotland was the top performing region in the UK outside of London for inward investment in 2012.
The fact that the number of foreign direct investment (FDI) projects to the UK as a whole increased by just 3 percent puts Scotland’s performance in an even more impressive light.
The report also highlighted that Scotland secured 11 percent of all FDI projects to the UK, up from 7.5 percent in 2011, and 18 percent of all research and development projects – widely regarded as the most valuable type of investment. What is that makes Scotland so attractive to investors?
I believe there are a number of factors.
The first is Scotland’s inherent strength in key sectors such as energy, financial services, technology and engineering and life sciences. Together with our world class universities and research institutes, these strengths give Scotland some unique competitive advantages.
The second is the ease of doing business here – Scotland offers companies a highly competitive business environment and strong networks of local companies that can act as important supply chains for these investors.
And finally, investors tell us time after time that the deciding factor for their investment in Scotland is the quality and integrated nature of support that is available to them from the public sector.
While grants and financial assistance are one part of this, it is the level of aftercare and support available which investors tell us they find most valuable."- Scottish Enterprise 2012

"The number of foreign direct investment projects in Scotland increased by 16% in 2012-13, according to official figures.
A total of 111 projects in Scotland attracted overseas money last year, up from 96 the previous year.
Finance Secretary John Swinney said the UKTI report "provides welcome recognition that Scotland is out-performing the UK at securing inward investment".
He said: "This report shows that Scotland reported record numbers of FDI projects in 2012/13, which demonstrates the continued attractiveness of Scotland as a place for investment and growth as we approach the referendum.
"With the full fiscal and economic powers of independence, the Scottish government could do even more to strengthen international investment."- BBC

"GLASGOW has been awarded for having the best inward investment strategy in Europe and taken third spot in a poll of the continent's top 10 large cities. The city's success, framed by FDI Magazine's European Cities and Regions of the Future for 2014/15 ranking, has been hailed as a triumph for the economic strategy, underpinned by its skills base, retail sector and further and higher education institutions."- Herald

firstly if you think Scottish Independence is going to right the wrongs of the working class. You are dreaming or worse naive.
A vote for Independence betrays not only your own WC but the WC throughout Britain.
The fallacy that voting Yes will rid Scotland of the Tories is not only weak, it is cowardly. Firstly, you may get rid of the Tories but that doesn't mean you will get rid of Tory ideas, a few of which are forefront on the SNP's campaign's  manifesto. The positions laid out on corporation tax, the monarchy, and NATO membership would sit more than comfortably in the pages of a Tory manifesto. More importantly, the idea that abandoning millions of people (the English Welsh) who've stood with you in trade union struggles, political campaigns, progressive movements, etc, for generations the idea that this can be considered progress is anathema. the argument that Scotland is more left leaning than the rest of the UK is a fallacy which tries to use England as a Whole rather than seperate regions, added to that is the fact we dont have proportional rep which means we have had Tory governments that are unrepresentative of where the majority of England and the rest of the UK sits politically. Scotland is no more left leaning than the deindustrialised North East, North West, and Midlands of England. Nor is it any more left leaning than Wales. The working class in Scotland is not any more progressive than English or the Welsh.
Today economic power doesnt lie with national governments as it used to. it lies with global capital and the free market. The fallacy that a small state peeled off a bigger one can somehow make a social democratic utopia without challenging the status quo is pretty slim as smaller states have much less clout in the hands of global capital, you would be competing for investment which means global corporations would be able to hard bargain more favourable terms in return for that investment. The inevitable result is a race to the bottom as workers in one state compete for jobs with workers in nextdoor states. its surely no accident that Rupert Murdoch is a vocal supporter of Scottish independence. Surely the workers of Britain have a common interest in joint struggle against austerity. They should not allow themselves to be divided by nationalists on either side of the border.  If you think that Independence will mean prosperity for Scottish working class you are seriously going to get a rude wake up call, wealth will not be fairly divided, capitalists, the rich will get richer but the working classes you have made weaker by loss of power (by losing their links with a larger UK trade union movement) will sink further into poverty and conveniently forgotten once the vote is spent.
Talk about divide and rule!

Right, you are going to need a whole vineyard of your best Italian for this Mrs Figg.
But I hope it explains my views, and why they exist, better. Settle in, keep the eels on the leash!   


"The fallacy that voting Yes will rid Scotland of the Tories is not only weak, it is cowardly."

It depends what you mean by Tory. It will successfully get rid of the Westminster Tory party. The Scottish Tory party however will go on, and in my opinion grow considerably free of the association with the Westminster party.
Pre-1950's the Tories were the first or second party in Scotland at elections, I dont see them getting back to that level because of the PR voting system, but the 1 MP they have here now is a sort of permanent protest, I dont believe its genuinely reflective of the amount of voters who have right of centre leanings. Those voters, people who would otherwise vote Tory, tend to vote SNP because of the SNP's friendly business policies (Salmond was after all a working economist before politics).

As to cowardly.
When combating an enemy (the Westminster Tory party in this case and then what New Labour became) if you are out gunned and out powered you have to use such levers as are available to you.
It has not been easy getting this far in the battle. The pressure began in the 50's by the 1970's (when I enter the story of Scotland!) Labour gave Scotland its first referendum on devolution. The Tories who opposed it made promises of further changes that would happen to help Scotland if we voted no.
The threshold however for what counted as a Yes was set artificially high, higher in fact than any government had ever been elected on.

Needless to say it was a majority for YES, but not high enough of one to get devolution.
And then Thatcher came to power and we got 15 years of her rule and none of the promises made in the run up to the referendum came to be.

The Scotland I grew up in was a horrible place- freezing damp council houses, random power cuts by striking trade unions, rubbish piled high in the streets, dead going unburied, and all along the Clyde River where I lived every bit of industry was disappearing.
Hundreds of years of ship building heritage- gone. Both the Yards on the Holy Loch where I lived (world renowned yards with round the world yachts being built there)  were closed, we played in their shells as kids.
Many thousands on the dole instantly.
All our mines, the entire Scottish Steel Industry. Everything went.

And for what? The regeneration of the south of England and moving the economy away from a manufacturing base to a services one.

And how did she pay for this? She used the oil, without the oil Thatcherism would never have come to be. It was crucial to the whole plan at the beginning, the
only way to afford and weather the closing down of most of the industry in the UK.
And whilst she did it she lied to us about how much oil was been produced. Outright lied, hid the figures, manufactured fake ones, as the papers released under the 30 year rule now reveal in black and white. With one paper declaring that Scotland "Had an embarrassing abundance of riches."
And whilst a Tory wrote that gem people had no jobs, and conditions were crap, services awful. Hospitals were being closed down or having wards greatly reduced, nothing seemed to work, not the people not the Councils, not the services.

Then at the end of Thatchers reign (during which she did not serve a single year of her 15 in power with any Scottish votes ) she brought in the Council Tax.
In Scotland, as an experiment.
A full year before its scheduled implementation in England.
And it was so unfair Scots took to the streets, they got arrested protesting in sit ins, it got ugly, eventually there were riots.
And Thatcher told us to lump it, it was here to stay.

Then it came to England, and no surprise, same response.
And it was instantly scrapped.
Furthering a sense in Scotland that no one at Westminster was even listening or looking our way not even if we took to the streets and set fire to stuff to try to get them to notice us.

The men who eventually brought about devolution were all Labour Men. The 'Founding Father' of the Parliament, and whose statue stands outside it, the late Donald Dewar, and the former Leader of the Labour Party,  the late much lamented John Smith (what a different country this might be if he had not sadly died and been replaced by Blair).
Men who had voted YES in the 70's and felt betrayed ever since.

But there was a catch, the parliament would have a PR system, no one minded with that, but it would have a list system, designed to ensure no one party would get a  majority.

In the late 70's the SNP got its firs MP elected to Parliament.
It took until 2007 for the SNP to get power in the Scottish Parliament, and then in a minority government.
Before that Labour had been the first ruling party, then a Lab-Lib dem pact.
Nothing happened under either of any significance. Both parties, Labour and Lib-dem were not autonomous, they ultimately had to pass everything through the Westminster party.
They steered the ship, the maintained the status quo, the didn't rock the boat.
So nothing changed.

When the SNP got in, much to most people surprise they turned out to be rather good. They were naturally able to stand up to Westminster and for Scottish interests in a way the others could never do.
Things started to happen, noticeable change, they ran the economy well, balancing the books in every year they a have been in power when Westminster massively increased its debts, and continue to run it well.
Services got better, they froze council tax, they maintained services when England lost them.

By now we had Blair's 'New Labour' in power, sitting politically somewhere right of the Tories.
Scottish Labour voters felt betrayed. We had voted for a left of centre party for 18 Tory years and England had outvoted us voting Tory. And now when they finally went for Labour, it was this New variety, another right of centre party only in disguise. This new brand privatised everything from railways to hospitals and schools and took us into hugely unpopular and illegal wars.

So in 2011 the SNP, on a wave of decades of disgruntlement and the looming prospect of a Tory government returning to Westminster they got their own voters, most of Labours and a big chunk of the Lib-dems.
They got what was never meant to happen- a majority government and the legal mandate from the people to hold a referendum, as doing so was in their manifesto.

The point of this history lesson? To hopefully help you understand better where I am coming from.
But please, don't tell me its cowardly. I marched against Thatcher, I have campaigned for the referendum and it has been decades of struggle against at times seemingly insurmountable odds by good well minded people and with a game rigged against us, to get our country this far.

And compared to the one I grew up in, its a better, fairer, more equal, less poisonous, less violent society by a country mile. And I make no apology for being proud of all those who helped make that happen and of the fact my little brother and my nieces are growing up in a better Scotland than the one I did. But we can still do more.

"the argument that Scotland is more left leaning than the rest of the UK is a fallacy which tries to use England as a Whole rather than separate regions, added to that is the fact we dont have proportional rep which means we have had Tory governments"- Mrs Figg

I have mentioned throughout our discussions that the north of England in particular is very like Scotland socio-economically. But when it comes to a general election the vote in England when the Tories win is the majority vote of England. Just as in Scotland it will not be.
And Scotland only has a PR system for Scottish Parliamentary elections and European, not General Elections to Westminster- we play by exactly the same first past the post rules as the rest of the UK does.

"Today economic power doesn't lie with national governments as it used to."

But choice does. The sort of choice that sees Scotland with a fully nationalised health service, and England with one currently falling apart marred in scandal and debt and part privatised.
The sort of choice which sees English kids having to find thousands of pounds in tuition fees if they want further education, when in Scotland they get it for free.
The sort of choice that sees Scottish teachers union signing an amiable agreement with the Scottish government on their pay and conditions whilst English teachers are consistently on the verge of striking.
The sort of change that if we had independence could see us deciding if we want to remain a  nuclear power or not.

Governments can still direct the capital they do control and the majority morality of the people. And the choices they make are important, and do make a real and important difference in everyday life and society.

"Surely the workers of Britain have a common interest in joint struggle against austerity."

Where was England's solidarity when Thatcher ripped the country apart?
Where was England's solidarity when the devolution vote was rigged.
When the oil money was lied to our faces about to hide the truth? Was squandered without creating an oil fund?
Where was England for the year we protested against the council tax?
Where was England when the Scottish Regiments were abolished?
We have been fighting the fight for decades, for England to wake up to it now and cry, 'no stay and help us fight it' is too late in the day.

This referendum has not sprung up out of the blue as some fevered imagining of the SNP. The SNP are in power and able to hold a referendum because the weight of political history in the last half century has directed the people more and more towards seeing this sort of dramatic change as the only way to have change.

The rise of the SNP since the late 70's to power matches perfectly the mistreatment of Scotland by successive Westminster parties in the exact same time period.

you are playing right into their hands. The whole of the UK suffered under Thatcher. England was protesting just as hard against the council tax etc. I remember the Miners Strikes and other horrors like that. you certainly dont have the monopoly on suffering or protesting. What you are doing is weakening any voice of dissent for the future. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

Where was England's solidarity when Thatcher ripped the country apart?
Where was England's solidarity when the devolution vote was rigged.
When the oil money was lied to our faces about to hide the truth? Was squandered without creating an oil fund?
Where was England for the year we protested against the council tax?
Where was England when the Scottish Regiments were abolished?
We have been fighting the fight for decades, for England to wake up to it now and cry, 'no stay and help us fight it' is too late in the day.

If you know anything about the strikes of 74 and 84 (I am sure you have done your research), you will know that England and Wales were fully involved and in fact all of the public were lied to on a regular basis (i.e. the number of pits to be closed quoted as 20 where official papers released since show the plan was always 70+ across the whole UK).

Scottish regiments abolished.... what about all of the other regiments across the UK that have gone. There are still plenty of military installations in Scotland and the UKs ship building industry will still be based there (I am sure you will argue this is all about placating the Scottish people).

We were all lied to about the Iraq war. The phantom dossier. Colchester barracks is in Essex and people I know have lost family or friends in a war they didn't believe in, but they supported our troops... not just the English ones.

I don't agree with Figgy that I think you are doing some nose cutting. Whatever your government is, you will be screwed over and lied to by the people that want power. The is what power and money do.

I think youve both missed my point.
I was not saying these things did not also effect areas of England just as badly and worse in some cases. Wales too.
But my point was to illustrate how it was perceived through a Scottish perspective and how that has led step by step to the point we are at now.

There seems to be a view that independence is just something the SNP came up with when they got in power, but thats not the case. There is a long history of events which I was trying to illustrate which led to the current state of affairs.

I didn't miss your point. Mine was that a lot of people went through that too. By splitting ourselves up, all that does is make your voice smaller and gives the ruling elite that little bit less to worry about.

But, as with all things, we will have to wait and see.

I agree Lance. Now when the shit hits the fan Westminster is forced to listen partly due to the Scottish government using the Scottish card to badger Westminster and partly due to the sheer numbers of people who can be drummed up to fight against injustice. Once you are independent the working classes, small insignificant and poorer will be quietly forgotten, relatively few people with no voice. An increasingly bitter and betrayed under class will emerge with ever more grievances against the middle class made richer and deaf by oil. Now the working classes of Scotland are being courted with promises but is it just pie in the sky?

Very interesting to hear how much common ground there is between you all, Mrs Figg, Petty and Lance. It seems Thatcher had a way of uniting people that continues after her death!  

So could I ask Mrs Figg and Lance to comment on my question of a couple days ago.  Is there a significant energy in other parts of the UK besides Scotland to try to fix some of the things that were broken in the Thatcher era?

Because if there is, then this starts to look  like a game where everybody might win if they're willing to speak up, as during the civil rights actions in the United States during the 60's.

David H wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

..At the same time the Lib Dems have been saying-

"The former Liberal Democrat leader said there was growing consensus that the Scottish Parliament's financial powers should be expanded to make it responsible for raising the taxes to pay for most of the money it spends, and that the institution should be entrenched permanently.
Speaking in Edinburgh, the North East Fife MP said: "Today's report makes a series of rational, reasonable and indeed radical recommendations by which this reform could take place. Equipping Scotland with more powers, what I regard as an early step for a federal UK, can be done.
2015 is the time when it should be done. To give a stable future for Scotland and the UK it must be done."

I'm frankly surprised to see the language of devolution appearing to extend beyond Scotland.  
Does this really mean that there is some support for decentralization that might extend to Wales and Cornwall, for example?   

This could get really interesting!  

BTW the reason I mentioned Cornwall had to do with a conversation I had years ago (that might have involved several pints) about having their own duke and not taking shit from Thatcher and her cronies anymore.  (There's nothing more entertaining for a traveler than mixing alcohol and politics!   )

Dave I havent lived in the UK for nearly 20 years, so most of the day to day stuff I have missed, but I remember the mass riots throughout the UK during the Poll Tax revolt. At that time I was a member of the Socialist Worker Party........  .....and we had some run ins with the police in Manchester, the hatred for Thatcher was intense. I think this new Bedroom Tax is widely despised and loathed as being terribly unfair but I dont know what the overall reaction has been on the Street. Maybe UKIP has benefitted from Tory and Labour government cock-ups but I am not aware of the mood for social unrest in England today, best asking Lance about that.

its funny about that. my politics teacher at school said that no matter how Left wing you were as a youngster sooner or later you will vote exactly like your parents. I was horrified and I remember the whole class being outraged, and saying no way will that evah happen etc etc,    but as the years pass I wouldnt say I would ever vote Tory    but I certainly have drifted to the right a bit    but then Socialists were pretty far down the Left.

Collection of satirical sketches on Thatcher from the contemporary tv show Spitting Image (2.39 for a sketch about Scotland under the Tories)

Mrs Figg wrote: my politics teacher at school said that no matter how Left wing you were as a youngster sooner or later you will vote exactly like your parents. I was horrified and I remember the whole class being outraged, and saying no way will that evah happen etc etc,   

  
The saying here at about the same time was,

If you're not a Democrat by the time you're 20, you don't have a heart.
If you're not a Republican by the time you're 40, you don't have a brain.


So far I've managed to avoid both. (Not sure what that means  )  I'm a "Plague a' Both Your Houses" voter.  I vote for the man or woman, not the party.

Same here. But I believe that quote originated with Winston Churchill, liberal versus conservative.

That sounds right. Between Shakespeare and Churchill on that side of the pond, Mark Twain and Will Rodgers on this side, you've got a quotation for just about every occasion.   

they say you never forget where you were when Kennedy got shot or 9/11, for me its when Blair got in after years of misery with Thatcher and Major. I remember that morning like its Yesterday, I was overjoyed. I remember literally running down the street exultant I was so happy I didnt care. Obviously the rot set in, but those heady first months were fabulous, before everything went pear shaped. I left England late in 1998 so what came later I missed.

I left school the year after that....

Cameron has been addressing the Scottish Conservative Conference-

'David Cameron has backed greater tax powers for the Scottish Parliament in the event of an independence No vote.
Mr Cameron told the Scottish Conservative conference it was facing a "monumental battle" to keep the UK together.
Speaking in Edinburgh ahead of the 18 September referendum, the prime minister said: "A vote for No is not a vote for no change.
"We are committed to making devolution work better still - not because we want to give Alex Salmond a consolation prize if Scotland votes No, but because it's the right thing to do."
Backing the position of Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, Mr Cameron added: "Giving the Scottish Parliament greater responsibility for raising more of the money it spends - that's what Ruth believes, and I believe it too."- BBC

Unfortunately for Cameron, Ruth Davidson seem to also believe in hedging her bets and positioning herself to keep her job no matter what happens-

'Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said she would stand for election in an independent Scotland.
Speaking to the BBC, Ms Davidson said she would want to "continue to be part of the political life of this nation".
Asked whether she would stand for election in an independent Scotland, Ms Davidson said: "I don't see any reason why I wouldn't.
"I hope that there won't be [an independent Scottish parliament], I'm fighting to make sure that there isn't, but I see no reason why I would not want to continue to be part of the political life of this nation."
The Tory leader was then questioned on whether she would support a currency union between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK following a "Yes" vote.
Ms Davidson's deputy, Jackson Carlaw, had previously said that should Scotland vote for independence, he would argue to keep the pound.

She said of his position: "[Jackson Carlaw] obviously thought that a sterling zone would be in its [an independent Scotland's] interests. I'm not sure that it would. What I don't know is whether it would be in an independent Scotland's best interests to have its own currency or to be part of a sterling zone."
She said she would support an independent Scotland's entry into the EU."- BBC


You couldn't make it up- they argue now that a sterling zone is a bad idea and we wont get into Europe- but if its a YES the very same Tories will be arguing for just those things to happen!

Sketch on the radio made me smile-

interviewer -Mr Cameron, You have said Scotland could conceivably be a viable economic independent country but the YES campaign accuses you of negative campaigning and doing Scotland down. How do you respond?

Cameron- I have always mainlined and said publicly Scotland could be a viable independent country, we are not doing Scotland or the Scots people down at all.

Interviewer- So why are you opposed to independence?

Cameron- Because without the UK they could not afford an armed forces, they would have no embassies, no clout on the international stage, they cant manage their oil resources, they wouldn't be able to afford the NHS, or pay social benefits, they cant afford to keep free prescriptions, education and travel for the elderly and without the pound their economy would collapse overnight.

Interviewer- But Scotland would be a viable independent country?

Cameron- Oh yes. I've never said they couldn't be.


 

fine tuned sense of sarkytude from Cameron   

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Sketch on the radio made me smile-

interviewer -Mr Cameron, You have said Scotland could conceivably be a viable economic independent country but the YES campaign accuses you of negative campaigning and doing Scotland down. How do you respond?

Cameron- I have always mainlined and said publicly Scotland could be a viable independent country, we are not doing Scotland or the Scots people down at all.

Interviewer- So why are you opposed to independence?

Cameron- Because without the UK they could not afford an armed forces, they would have no embassies, no clout on the international stage, they cant manage their oil resources, they wouldn't be able to afford the NHS, or pay social benefits, they cant afford to keep free prescriptions, education and travel for the elderly and without the pound their economy would collapse overnight.

Interviewer- But Scotland would be a viable independent country?

Cameron- Oh yes. I've never said they couldn't be.

Wasn't it a sketch?

Loved the Spitting Image Scotland sketch, by the way. 

What would happen to healthcare in Scotland if the referendum passes?

Blue- yeah was a sketch not real. But rather spot on I thought.



Bungo- Healthcare is already devolved, which is why we still have a nationalised service and England has a nightmare halfway private halfway nationalised version that always seems mired in scandal and funding crisis.
So there shouldn't be any real difference afterwards.

healthcare? I think there would be free deep fried mars Bars and legalized haggis smoking.

Hmmm, I was led to believe that the NHS was all puppies and sunshine.