FREEDOM!!!! [2]

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Cant even get some countries (US looking at you here) to sign up to the ICC, let alone think about handing over any other powers.

Once the space aliens land and take over everything will be cool. We may have to pay annual tribute in maidens bearing bags of cheese curls, but it will be worth it.

I dunno about that Halfy. I dont think I'd like to live in a world where we just give away all our cheese curls.  

Cheese Crunchies are better than cheese curls, just saying...

do you mean Quavers? because they are the tastiest thing on earth.

Got to agree there- quavers rock   {{{thats the snacks for the wedding taken care of them! Quite cheap too if I get out of date stock. Got to watch the sporran  }}}}

Cameron the Coward!! Cameron Wimps Out! Camerons got no Bottle. These are the sort of comments Ive been hearing from folks in response to todays news-

'David Cameron has confirmed he will not have a TV debate on Scottish independence with Alex Salmond.
The prime minister has written to Scotland's first minister rejecting his invitation for a head-to-head showdown.
Mr Salmond has argued that, as first minister of Scotland, he should face the prime minister of the UK.
But Mr Cameron said the first minister should instead face Alistair Darling, head of the pro-Union campaign group Better Together.'- BBC

Whats up Cameron? Cant you defend your Union? Dont you know enough about Scotland to debate here? I mean as PM of Scotland you would think he could at the least come here and put his case.

Which way is it likely to go? I think you posted poll data once.

That as usual depends on which poll you look at.
A crucial element in all this thats worth bearing in mind is that there are no pro-independence media. Every single newspaper, and every news station is Unionist (technically the BBC is supposed to be balanced, but few think it has been entirely fair, but its still the most reliable source given the options)

"In the two months to the end of July, there were no polls at all on how Scotland intended to vote in referendum. In the last two months, in contrast, nine polls have been published, with most of these being unveiled during the last two or three weeks.
At first glance the picture they have presented has been very confusing. One poll put the Yes side one point ahead, while another suggests they were no less than 32 points behind.
But this apparent volatility tells us more about the pollsters than it does about the voters. There are some important differences in the way in which the recent polls have been conducted and reported and these help to account for much of the variation between them.
The Yes side's average poll rating currently stands at 33%, while the No side has a score of 50%. Around 17% say they do not know or are unsure about what they will do."- BBC

And remember those averages are taken from all the polls, the majority of which have been conducted by pro-Union organisations.

In truth I dont think the polls are reflecting the actual situation much at all. But more than that I think most people know they are going to be getting a lot of info and debate over the coming year and will make up their minds when they have heard a lot more. Its too early for the polls to mean much.
From people I have spoken to my gut feeling is the majority are neither passionate about the Union or independence, but do want to weigh up the choices and give both a fair hearing.
The numbers of entrenched yes and no votes is in my experience far less than the polls would imply, and the 'dont knows' much higher.

Taken in Orkney, apparently.

Cameron is probably afraid that he may not be able to resist punching Salmonds chubby cheeks in a heated debate. I mean it must be difficult to not want to slap such an irritating chap. Salmond is a Master Goader.


  Eldo

Salmond is a Master Goader.- Mrs Figg

Yes, he is indeed.

"I believe David Cameron's refusal to debate Scotland's future with me can be summed up in one word - "feart"*. - Alex Salmond

A word traditionally used by women to mock and chide weak men.

nuff said. Cameron wouldnt last 5 minutes without putting up his dukes.

Camerons is a posh snob who was part of that pratts club the Bullington Club.
Salmond would take him in seconds. Just the thought of Cameron trying to be aggressive makes me laugh.

Cameron doesnt want to come up because Salmond is excellent in debates, he has command of his facts, is a good speaker, uses wit cuttingly and thinks fast on his feet.
Cameron on the other had only has that limp biscuit Miliband to stand up to in debate, is not quick on his feet and worse of all has paid little attention north of London and doesnt know a thing about Scotland, let alone enough to debate live on tv on the subject.
Salmond would make mincemeat of him.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Camerons is a posh snob who was part of that pratts club the Bullington Club.
Salmond would take him in seconds. Just the thought of Cameron trying to be aggressive makes me laugh.

Cameron doesnt want to come up because Salmond is excellent in debates, he has command of his facts, is a good speaker, uses wit cuttingly and thinks fast on his feet.
Cameron on the other had only has that limp biscuit Miliband to stand up to in debate, is not quick on his feet and worse of all has paid little attention north of London and doesnt know a thing about Scotland, let alone enough to debate live on tv on the subject.
Salmond would make mincemeat of him.

Cameron doesnt really give a shit about what Salmond has to say, so he would be foolish to expose himself.

He is the Prime Minister, the political Head of the Union. If he wants Scots to vote with him to maintain that Union as he claims he should at least come here and put his case in person.
If he is so confident there is a strong a case for the Union then let him tell us what it is in open, honest, public debate.

Salmond is making hay with this debate thing while Cameron refuses. Its a win/win for Salmond- if Cameron does agree to a debate he is going to have to answer some questions he really doesnt want to, and if he keeps refusing the SNP can run on the line that he is scared and dosnt have the confidence in his argument to stand up to debate.

'Scotland's first minister has called on David Cameron to reconsider his decision not to face him in a televised debate on Scottish independence.
Mr Salmond revealed on Sunday that he had written to Mr Cameron setting out "six reasons why a constitutional debate must now take place between the two heads of government".
The first minister's letter read: "With respect, your arguments for not debating Scotland's future are undermined by the highly political nature of your letter.
"You are attempting to place yourself in the position of trying to dictate the terms of the debate on Scotland's future without being willing to publicly defend your arguments in debate. You seek power without responsibility and that is unacceptable".
Mr Salmond said Mr Cameron's government was "central to the entire referendum debate from the perspective of the No campaign", and said voters had the right to know the details of the prime minister's alternative constitutional arrangements to independence.
He also said there were many questions which Mr Darling, the former Chancellor, could not answer, such as why the UK government was not sitting down to negotiate with the Scottish government over issues such as sterling or defence arrangements.

Mr Salmond's letter concluded: "Following the SNP's majority victory in the last Scottish Parliament election, you made the following comment: "I will campaign to keep our United Kingdom together with every single fibre that I have." (Daily Telegraph May 7, 2011) You continue to direct your Government, and its taxpayer-funded resources, to make the case against an independent Scotland.
"That is entirely consistent with your stated intention in the quote above. However your attempt to duck a television debate on the subject is not. Either you stand up and debate or butt out of the debate for good.
"The case for a head-to-head debate between us is unanswerable. You should reconsider."

Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show on Sunday, Mr Cameron once again against dismissed suggestions that he should take part in a televised debate with Mr Salmond.
He said: "Alex Salmond wants the question to be about anything other than the question.
"So he would like the debate to be the SNP versus the Tory Party or Scotland versus England. It's not - it's a debate between Scots.
"What it should be is between Alistair Darling, leader of the No campaign, and Alex Salmond, leader of the Yes campaign.
"Let them debate. But he wants to change the question. He's a canny guy but I saw that one coming."- BBC

Cameron is right about one thing, Salmond is a canny political operator and he has got Cameron on this one either which way.

actually Cameron has a point, its not up to the English to decide but the Scottish. Its up to the leaders of the Yes vote to put forward a good argument, trying to score points off Cameron could look like bully tactics.

The decision about independence is made among Scots, but the people we have to negotiate it with is Cameron and co- and its Cameron who has promised 'further powers' if we vote no, without specifying when or what.
So Cameron does have a case to answer too- as Salmond points out Cameron is fighting for a no vote using UK tax payers money, he should at least make his case.
If its just about the Scots as he says then he should not be allowed to use English tax money to fund the no campaign.

dont get me wrong, I cant stand either of them, but public debates are discretionary not mandatory, if Cameron feels he will get browbeaten and a good drubbing I can understand why he cant be arsed. Either way both politicians policies shouldnt be left to tv debates as a means of spreading info, they can be useful for the dont know vote, but I dont think Cameron seriously believes theres going to be a Yes vote victory.

I dont think Cameron seriously believes theres going to be a Yes vote victory.- Figgs

Thats exactly why there might be one in the end- no one expected the SNP to win the last Scottish election- they were nearly 30 points behind at one point according to the polls and the opposition wrote them off, and then they went onto get an overall majority in a PR system.

I do get the sense that Cameron is nervous about the idea of facing Salmond in a TV debate, as he probably should be, but TV debates are all about style over substance anyway. They're not a very good way to spread information and make reasoned political arguments. They're not really even debates in the traditional sense, anyway. More just parallel speeches and barbed comments about ones opponents.

Thats true (although more so with US presidential debates I would say) but its a win-win for Salmond. He has nothing to fear from a tv debate, he is good at them, and if Cameron keeps refusing Salmond gets to paint him as the PM who is too afraid or doesn't care enough to debate on behalf of the Union.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I dont think Cameron seriously believes theres going to be a Yes vote victory.- Figgs

Thats exactly why there might be one in the end- no one expected the Spanish Inquisition to win the last Scottish election- they were nearly 30 points behind at one point according to the polls and the opposition wrote them off, and then they went onto get an overall majority in a thumb screw and tweeking system.

there fixed that for you.