Shamany and Spiritual stuff

I thought I would start this thread for stuff of a spiritual nature.
As many of you will know I always seperate out religion from other possibilities.
So this isnt about religion, although its about the yearning thats gives rise to religion in the first place.

I often think of Shamanism as a lost science- it never had a Newton who bridges the gap between alchemy and science, between western magic and science.
Shamanism still remains outwith the realms of science, yet there is thousands of years of experience and acquired knoweldge.

Many years ago in a National Geograpic (I think it was NG)there was a piece on shamans of a jungle tribe.
They hunted a type of monkey, which they killed by means of poisoned darts.
The poison was made from several different ypes of plant- this was becuase it had to kill the monkey almost instantly- however when this happens the monkey stays griipped onto the branch, out of reach, so it also had to relax all the muscles so it would fall out the canopy.
They worked out that if you took the number of plants in the rainforest within access of the tribe and tried to find and make such a poison that would achieve this it would take by trial and error longer than the rainforest had existed for.
When they put this puzzler to the shaman he replied, "We just ask the plants. They know what they can do."

In the shamanism I was most involved with this is called Silent Knowledge. Its not a conversation where they chat, but an exchange of energetic information- where knoweldge is gained without words. All humans are occasionally capable of doing this, and then we say we just had a hunch, Shamans just really hone that ability.

If anyone is interested I can give a Shaministic description of the universe, and life, how perception works and why dreams might be more than they seem!

And if anyone has any spiritual thoughts or stories, or experiences to share, please do.

I find this topic very interesting ! So, if you want to educate me further, I am more than happy to learn ! Even with the simplest of things I like to take notice of, for instance, following the laws of nature. Watch how birds & animals behave. They know or "feel" much better than we do. Ive joked before about dancing bare foot in the moonlight, but in reality, I mean it ! Anything to do with more "Earthly" ideas interest me quite a bit. Things that were (& sometimes still are) seen as witchcraft is not as evil OR dumb as you think !

Ok I'll have a go.
For the record my own experiences were a mixture of Wicca (witchcraft for want a better translation- although 'manipulator' might be more accurate) a bit of Masonry, and a lot Casteneda.
That last one needs some justifying as Carlos Casteneda was largely a fraud.
I say largely as I personally think his first two books were written from genune notes, and there is some evidence to support this- however he certainly made it up after that, and when on to exploit money out the gullible until he died.
However he did rip off some genuine sources along the way in the made up stuff, and that was the fist time I had encountered those concepts.
The main thing from Casteneda however that is of use, is terminolgy.
The concepts shamnism deals with, like maths, needs its own language to talk about.
As Casteneda is a common source for myself and several of my friends who went through similar experiences it proves useful to us to use his terms when talking about these concepts, and I will explain each as they come up.

So here goes.

Well lets start with humans. What are we? Well first and foremost we are energy, and secondary matter- but that goes for everything so doesnt tell us much.
We perceive a solid world. According to Shamans this isn actually natural to us, but is a byproduct of perception as humans use it.

Humans are a bubble of energy. The energy inside the bubble has different types, but all made up of energy that exists also outside the bubble in the rest of the universe.
The reason there are different types is that over the time of human evolution we had different perceptions of the world, and some of those bands of energy were in use once, but are no longer. Others are a just part of the whole that is out there, caught in the bubble.
The energy inside and outside are called the Emanations, with those outside the bubble usually referred to as the Emanaions at large.
When energy inside matches up with energy outside it is called alignment. Where alignment occurs on the shell it produces a glow.
Shamans observed that the glow fades in the unconcious and is absent from the dead and so called it the Glow of Awareness.
I should perhaps pointout when they speak of glows, and energy alingment it is only a means to best convey in words a total immersive expercience that is beyond words- there is no glow, but when shamans are pressed to put into words they have to describe as the eyes would see it or noone would understand a word becuase humans are so predomintly visual creatures.
Anyway the glow is awareness, the emantions which aligned are the universe you perceive.

It follows therefore that different species have different emenations aligned, accounting for different ways of percieving the same world, from sonar to siesmology. It also turns out things have different intensities of glow too, more and less concious. And some things have a suprising large energy configuations- mushroooms, particularly halucnigenic ones have energy configurations bigger than a trees.
Shamans also noticed something interesting about the glow of awareness that was completely natural.
It drifted when someone was dreaming.
From his Shamans worked out that the more bizarre the dream the further the glow had drifted, and therefore new emantions were being aligined.
This in turn led them to an intriguing idea- what if you could become awere in a dream you were having one, could you move it deliberetly?
And if you could what would happen if you did it will you were awake?

The first question led to the discovery of lucid dreaming.
They found that you couldnt control the drift, but you could control your perception wherever it ended up and become aware you were in adream and make delibrate actions.
This in turn led them to the answer to the second question- the discovery that there was more than one type of awareness available to humans.
Accordingly they called normal awareness, the everyday world, the First Attention.
The Second Attention was the abilty to gather your First Attention to a new positon of the glow.

The problem was that from observing subjects whose glow of awareness was moved their behaviour indicated that they were either driven mad, or had no ability to hold cohesion, the keep their First Attention active.
Certain plants also caused the glow to shift, but the shifts were random and often fast, making them hard to control or study.
The solution to this was dreaming.
As the shift there was natural it had no ill effects. By becoming more and more adept at controlling their dreams and being fully aware within them they were learning how to use the second attention.
It was it turned out exactly comparable to how as infants we learnt to make sense of and control the first attention. It just took exposure, practise and effort.

But there was another problem.
The emantions at large not only can cause alignment, they also carry information, the blueprint for what makes us the species ect we are.
And among that is a commmand of sorts, an imperative in all animal life. Its called the Inventory.
And it is what is sounds. A list of stuff. Animals list things; safe places, dangerous shapes and shadows, they have bolt holes, food stashes, lots of stuff on their inventory.

Humans have a very sophisticated one, so sophisticated we can recognise a table in a room, even though there are millions of table designs and shapes and possibilities. Thats how good our inventory is.
Originally it was just useful to our primitive ancestors- a very good way of identifying friend from foe, food from poison ect.
But then we did something quite silly but as it turned out also revolutionary in our development as a species.
We put ourselves on on the list- as a seperate object in the universe from the physical version.
This version, the one on the list was somethig completely new, it was a version of ourselves, in our head.
We gave birth to ego. We started talking to ourselves, describing our world in ever finer detail to ourselves, in ever more spohisiticated ways. And we got further and further form the emanations that we would best sum up as instincts. Silent knowledge- to know without words.

So what is the problem with the inventory?
Well its all but useless if a shaman aligns a whole new set of emantions- the whole point of the inventory is to supply all the information needed in an instant to turn whatever bits of energy thats out there which we are actually interacting with into a desk a with a pc on it to type about shamans into. Everything on the list is a description of stuff in the first attention- as soon as a shift in the glow occurs a shaman is in the second attention.
His list means nothing if an entirly new set of emantions are utilised- so the inventroy tries to do its job anyway, it takes a best guess, what does this new energy remind me off?- and the poor brain, given the task of turning this into visual information produces hallucinatory images. Best guesses at what it is encountering.

The solution to that was to build up a new inventory, just as the original had been, and so that led to apprenticeships, to life long study from infancy. Giving enough time to build up a new inventroy capable of making sense of the second attention using the facilities of the first.

So Shamans have an energetic creation story if you like of how humans come to be, why we are human, why we perceive what we do, and that it was possible, but very difficult, to percive the universe entirely diferently than we normally do but sustainably.
But they didnt have the answer to the big one. Why? What was it all for?

They reasoned that the Eminations at large must have a source. So they tried to perceive it directly.
They called what they saw the Eagle, for no other reason than it reminded them for some reason of a giant eagle.
But they also observed something else that changed everything.
They discovere that every living thing is trying to die. It wants to die. The energy inside the shell is depserate to get back out.
All that holds it in is the glow of awareness. When the glow starts to fade, the shell becomes weaker and the pressure from the emaations at large eventually crack it and all the energy flows out.
But not the glow of awareness. It goes right back to the source. Awareness is food for the eagle.
AT least that is how they saw it. More modern groups tend to note the 'eagle' also is the source of the emantions and therefore life, and take the view the process of living somehow enriches the energy through experience, which in turn goes back to source and enriches the whole.
Alternatively you could say we are god or you could say we are all star dust.


Now I dont believe all this, belief doesnt feature. Only the bits I can personaly say I have experience of.
So I have experience of shifts in perception to seemingly total worlds, and of what it feels like to try to gather yourself at that point and make sense of it.
And I learnt lucid dreaming through their techniques, and I can confirm the similarity of mood and intent required to that of the desription of the difference between first and second attention. And I have used knowledge gained in lucid dreaming to stabilise perception whilst under the influence of hallunegenics.
First and Second attentions and solidifiying the glow on a new spot all seem fitting descriptive tems for the experiences.
But the rest are tales of power- stories until personally experienced, like being able to fly, or new york.

Sorry for length- I left most of it really too! But hard to explain life the universe and eveything unless your satisfied with an answer of 42.

But hard to explain life the universe and eveything unless your satisfied with an answer of 42.

Yeah, I think the trick is not to ask that question in the first place.

For myself, I grew up aware that there were two ways of understanding the world, one being the rational, logic based, problem solving view that gives us the scientific method and all kinds of cool shit, and the other being the older "horse sense" which is more instinctive and intuitive. If you grow up around wise animals you know never to discount their instincts without a reason.

I think there's no reason why a person can't develop both ways of thinking at the same time. The trick is not to let yourself judge one by the standards of the other.

Just one example. There's a bit of a trick to finding sweet water around here. The man who hammered most of the wells, often down between 100 and 200 feet held a map of the soils for the area in his head, and had his logs of every well he'd ever dug going back over 50 years describing the soils he hit at exact depths. He often asked my dad to help him, not only because they were friends but because my dad had been taught by his dad to "witch" water with a forked willow wand. And dad taught me.

He said it wasn't important whether you believed it worked or not, you just needed to "listen" to the willow and it would show you things. That was his way saying not to let the scientific way of understanding the world get in the way of feeling what else might be going on.

I don't know. All i know is that when I bend a fresh green forked willow in between my hands and try not to think about it at all, it behaves in interesting ways, like a horse communicating with a rider through the reins and seat.

I don't for a second let myself believe that there is any magic, or that it's intelligent or even alive, or that there's an electric or spiritual field, because any effort at all to explain what I'm feeling puts me right back into that logical cause/effect state of mind which is the trap that makes it almost impossible to "listen". Horses don't think like that and neither should water witchers.

It's late and I forgot where I was going with this. I almost deleted, but reckon I'll let it stand. G'night all!

ooohh, interesting thread, i might contribute although i am ot very much for like alternative stuff, i must admit that there is somethign out there, but it's kinda hard when there so many, let's just out it out there, frauds and tricks and such, but yeah, those monkey killers you talked about yeah, that's interesting shit

The easier and safer our lives the less attuned with our environment humans have become, methinks. In fact, our environment has become so hugely big and globular, we have no chance really of being properly attuned. Sorry, not a spiritual bone in my body. I do think if you use the word intuitive or attuned (even observational) as other words for 'spiritual', then I think 'spirituality' exists.

{{{Fairies exist too, but only if you're Politically Incorrect (apparently)}}}.

Us modern folks have lost a lot of the old knowledge and common sense. You knew it would rain in a few hours because the clouds gathered in a specific way on that mountain top. You built your house where the sheep or cattle would lay down to rest, because that was a dry and good spot.

And we are animals after all. Now we need to know how to navigate in the city jungle and locate food in the supermarket to stay alive and safe. Different living conditions demand different skills.

Supermarkets are nervous places. People may learn something of your secret Self by the purchases you make.

Fjordiantease a'shoppin'

fisk finger baby
speaks of the sea
and fisk and love
and norweigan genes

can of soup
cans upon cans
one can so like the other
but individdles, understand?

like humans

or hobbits

i see you don't --
then mince meat
lean beef, fatty beef,
what are they saying?

that

you're a carnivore?
a whore?
not a vegan (bore?)
snore snore snore

sleep little baby
don't you cry
Daddy's* going to buy you
a rocking horse

super market
duper market
hypermarket
you with your full
basket in your blue coat

unicoloured

ooh eyes see right
through to my Soul
whatever you do
don't buy the Swiss Roll!

Parandamme: by Shelley {unreported and only half curlybracketed

Channelled special for sumwon special by Wisey Banks, peculiarly, on the Shamany Thread, whooooo.... {{{for her birthday.... }}}{{{wrong thread for it... there is no wrong thread if she visits it.... }}}




* 'Mummy's' in the Northern Tales

well, I actually believe in some of this,"airy fairy" stuff ! Im more of the "natural order of things" mind. I belive in utilising natural forces for info,rather than a computer geek trying to tell me the weather, for instance. And I think people do have an "Aura". Surrounding them is a glow of colour. And if you can "read" that, it can tell you about that person,to a certain degree. You can "tune in" to the natural world & the UN natural world. sometimes I wonder IF thats why we get that "de ja vue" feeling ? & why do people THINK theyve lived before ? Ive had weird experiances happen to me in my life, things I cant often explain, is it my subconscious ? or is it to do with a more "out of body/mind" thingy ? Im having a go at finding more out about Wiccan,Pagan,spirital things. A lot of stuff, especially concerning "ghosts"!,ARE to my mind,due to scientific things.But,I do get a little hair rising niggle about some things. Ive said that word "things" far to often ! bloody bad grammar that is !

Im with Dave on this- there is more than one way for a human to interact with the world- one of them is reason- and bloody good it is too, but reason keeps everything at arms length.
There is also knowledge to be gained in experience, direct and raw. Just of a different sort.
And one doesnt stand up to scrutiny by the other, but they are like two sides to the same coin.
In the Casteneda shamanism they call them the Tonal and the Nagual- the tonal being everything you can think of or name, from who you are to everything in existence, and the nagual is the unknown and unknowable.
The tonal is the domain of words and the nagual the domain of direct experience.
The nagual relates to the second attention, and when we learn to perform an action to such a degree we can perfom it perfectly without any input from the tonal or even whilst the tonal is doing something else, we explain the ability by saying 'its second nature to me'- funny things words, full of hidden meanings in plain sight!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
The tonal is the domain of words and the nagual the domain of direct experience.

And that's the difficulty. When you try to express something that's totally natural but nonverbal in terms of words, it always seems to come out sounding a bit alien, spooky and otherworldly. Or just hippy!

Yup, there is no avoiding it.
We dont have the words precisely because the experience is wordless.
So when you talk about it you end up sounding either mad, an idiot, or both.
One of the reasons I like the Casteneda terminology, apart from it seeming to fit better than most, is it is a lot less spirity, ghosty, telepahy based, and more an alternative description of the world that complements the rational one.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Ok I'll have a go.
For the record my own experiences were a mixture of Wicca

Funny you should mention Wicca. Never heard of it before until a few days ago. My wife likes that sort of stuff and joined a group on google called Wicca for everybody.
Maybe its a calling. I like running round the garden naked, being one with nature.

The Law of Three
'That which you send forth shall return to you threefold.For good or ill thus shall it ever be.'
Within the context of Wiccan Spirituality and Magick, the Wiccan Rede "if it harm none, do what you will.' is seen as the first law or guideline. The Law of Three is considered to be the second law within most, if not all Wiccan traditions. In many respects the Law of Three or Threefold Law, is the Wiccan expression of the universal law of cause and effect. If by your words and actions you put forth good/positive energy, this will be returned to you threefold. Likewise if you put forth evil/negative energy, this to will be returned to you threefold. The word threefold can be interpreted in a number of ways...it can mean at three times the intensity, it can mean in three ways, it can mean at three different times, and it can mean on three levels of being (physical - mental - spiritual). The way that the effects manifest, will depend on what is right for you at the time. If you need an infusion of good luck, a good deed may come back to you at three times the intensity. If you need to learn a specific spiritual lesson, the effects may be returned to you at three different times and/or on three different levels of being.This law provides us with may opportunities to learn as we move through our lives. One could also say that the Law of Three is a way that Karma and the spiritual lessons there of, manifests within Wiccan thealogy. Know and remember, while we may not directly witness how the Law of Three (Karma), manifests within a person's life, we can rest assured that it does manifest in the way that is right for them to have the opportunity to learn what they need to learn.

That is something I can relate with Chris ! Many a time Ive cursed someone under my breath, then thought...hang on I bet that will come back on me !....Now, I tell myself, & others, to think positive thoughts ! Get the happy vibes flowing & it will flow back to you, like the tides of the sea.

There are plenty within Wicca who think the threefold law is merely the magic world equivelent to 'dont play with yourself or you will go blind.' Just a deterent from doing something deemed wrong.
I sure as hell wouldnt rely on it to punish them if I thought someone was up to no good directed my way.

Oh No Petty ! I still feel the same way about people who undoubtedly shit on me & thats having words with my good friend..baseball bat....Unless I can quietly & calmly talk them out of shatting on me...

Or follow it, club it over the head and drag it back and keep it in your basement- just saying....

Rough little Scotsneanderthal !

you said it Azriel.