Stuff from the book that should have been in the film, but mysterously wasn't (or the what the **** you playing at PJ thread)

[Pettytyrant101]

Ok so PJ decided to stretch TH into 3 films. You would think that the least we could expect would be therefore that the majority of the book would be adapted and in there. But it wasn't.

So here's a thread for stuff that should have been there and wasn't.


One of my least favourite scenes in the film (not including completely made up ones) is the troll scene.
I love the humour in it and yet PJ made most of their diaogue up himself and it is awful.

So heres some lines I think should have been there.

Bilbo- Bilbo Baggins, a bur- a hobbit.
Tom- What's a burrahobbit?
William- What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pockets, anyways?

William- You can't expect folk to stop here for ever just to be et by you and Bert.

Bert- P'raps there are more like him round here, and we might make a pie. Here you, are there any more of your sort a-sneakin' in these here woods, yer nasty little rabbit.
Bilbo- Yes, lots. No none at all, not one.
Bert- What d'yer mean?
Bilbo- What I say. And please don't cook me, kind sirs! I am a good cook myself, and cook better than I cook, if you see what I mean. I'll cook beautifullly for you, a perfectly beautiful breakfast for you, if only you won't have me for supper."

(After first dwarves captured)
Tom- "There's more to come yet or I'm mighty mistook. Lots and none at all it is. No burrahobbits, but lots of these here dwarves. That's about the shape of it.

William- You're a booby!
Tom- Booby yerself!

[Mrs Figg]

the worst thing about the Troll scene in the film was that it was boring. The moment I saw the Trolls my brain switched off from the film, and I got that twitchy restless feeling like when you are waiting in a Que for something and theres like 20 people in front of you, you want to get up and leave but it just means you are putting off the misery so you stay loathing each tedious second. yep thats how I felt until the Eagles.

[Pettytyrant101]

The really disapointing thing is I can totally see Martin Freeman delivering lines like -

Yes, lots. No none at all, not one.

or

I am a good cook myself, and cook better than I cook, if you see what I mean.

And its brilliiant.
And how humourously the trolls argueing with Gandalf fooling them could have been. The actors do a good job witth the voices, if they had just had the dialogue from the book it would have been so much better.

[Mrs Figg]

yes I know but its too late now. we need to win the lottery and make our own version.

[azriel]

Yes Mrs figg, & show PJ just how to do it ! & do it RIGHT

[RA]

if they had just had the dialogue from the book it would have been so much better.

The whole Middle Earth movie franchise in a nutshell.

[Mrs Figg]

yeah I would LOVE to see the look on PJs face when we made a film that was better than his. and everyone loved it and were transported back to ME. only with different actors. It would be difficult for people not to miss Sir Ian as Gandalf though.

[Pettytyrant101]

Actually I thnk Gandalf is one of the easier roles to recast- all you need is a quality stage actor with a good voice- the costume does the rest- I like Sir Ian but I equally like Sir Michael Hordern in the BBC version too (in fact I like him better, but only cause he gets a lot more Tolkien to say)

[Mrs Figg]

hmmmm I think people see Sir Ian as Gandalf, no matter how good the new actor, I would miss him anyway he IS Gandalf for me.

[Pettytyrant101]

Thats the thning- before Pj made LotR's Hordern was 'my' Gandalf.
But I think, especially given the script, Sir Ian is an excellent Gandalf too so I think people can accept a new person- look at Doctor Who (ok maybe not a good example where you are concerend, I mean for everyone else!)

[azriel]

I think If you get the right actor to play Gandalf you'll be off & away. I think people also see that Gandalf is the linch pin, the glue that holds it together. Hes a reasonably prominant figure in the stories. Hes always there when you need him, he makes you feel safe,hes reliable, hes like anyone's cosy old grandad, yet he's firm but fair. strong when he needs be & compassionate & soft when the occasion calls for it.

[Pettytyrant101]

Nowhere near crabbit enough in PJ's- quick to laughter and quick to anger in the book- he's pretty damn grumpy at times and I miss that (and he should have bent back- Tolkien is very clear on that- a back bent beneath its load)

[Mrs Figg]

Sir Ian is perfect in the role I cant imagine anyone coming close. I cant imagine anyone with that amount of charisma. I cant imagine crying with Frodo after he is lost in Moria or laughing when he sees Frodo wake up after the Ring is gone., with anyone else.

[halfwise]

I would have put in Sir Alec Guinness, but Sir Ian did a corking good job, I thought.

[Mrs Figg]

I dont think he had the warrior like qualities that Ian can play when he needs to. Gandalf the White has to be lordly and stern, Alec was too urbane and elegant for Gandalf, but he was a truly great actor. I would have had him play Saruman, because he could be chilly and aloof like in Bridsehead revisited.

[Pettytyrant101]

I agree Figgs, he would be an excellent Saruman- but then so would Chris Lee have been had PJ given the dialogue and character from the book to play instead of a one dimensional boo hiss panto villian.
I have always wondered, given Lee's passion for Tolkien what he really thought of some of those lines he was given to deliver.

But I would have liked to see a Gandalf the Grey that was more, well old, with bent back, more of a lean on his stick sort and much more crabbit- then when he returns as the White, tall, straight backed and reborn there is an impressive visual difference thats more than a trimmed beard and change of clothes.

[Orwell]

Ian was excellent. I can live without the bent back - but the loss of dialogue. That's strange. Did they really think they could do better? Apparently they did.

Liked the scenes at Bag End - but a few extra jokes were thrown in. Why?

Actually, much of the Bag End stuff seemed very Tolkinish. Del Toros' contribution?

[halfwise]

it did seem playful in a Del Toro way, didn't it?

[Mrs Figg]

well I for one saw the difference between Gandalf the Grey and White, he acted completely differently. totally different in actions demenour and attitude.

he was badly let down in the Hobbit though. that WC stuff was rubbish, even worse for Saruman, that was painful to watch and listen to. and boring.

[Pettytyrant101]

But not much in physicality- nowhere near the change in the book- Gandalf is noted for having a bent back- Tolkien mentions it when talking about his height somewhere even, Frodo puts it in his lament to Gandalf in Lorien 'a back that bent beneath its load...a weary pilgrim on the road' and 'an old man in a battered hat, who leaned upon a thorny staff.'

As from the first reading of that lament it really struck me those versies have cemented an image of Gandalf in my head, which in his portrayal Ian did not live up to.
Gandalf the Grey doesnt just look old, he really is old. The bodies they inhabit wear out slower but they do age, and they are susceptible to all the things bodies are.
I never got the same sense of Gandalf being an old man in a battered hat who leant upon a thorny staff and whose back was bent beneah his load from PJ's films. He's too young, too sprightly.

Agree about WC however-- particularly the terrible waste of Lee's time that it was to spout some nonsense about Radagast and mushrooms. I wonder what he thought the first time he read that!

[Mrs Figg]

you are kidding. Gandalf the Grey looks really old and he cant go round with a hunch it would have been physically impossible and painful for any actor to sustain.

[Pettytyrant101]

Theres loads of actors have played characters with a hunch- the hunchback of notre dame tends to spring to mind- richard III for another.
In fact Mckellan played with a hunch as Richard III, twice a day every day 5 day a week on stage.

And he looks old, but he doesnt appear or move old in his body. Its a dead give away he is more than he seems.

[halfwise]

the lack of a hunch back didn't bother me. incidental stuff compared to the bad lines.

[Mrs Figg]

well I think he nailed both the Grey and the White. you are the only person I have ever heard to critisize Sir Ian for his portrayal so I will take it with a pinch of salt.

[Pettytyrant101]

I think its something though Tolkien was very delibrate about.

Think of how Gandalf is first at the start of the book.
He takes as much pleasure in the comforts of Bag End as Bilbo does.
When he comes back to tell Frodo what he has found out about the Ring they have breakfast first, and Tolkien makes the point of Gandalf commenting on how much he enjoys having breakfast with an 'agreeable hobbit', he then goes on to look out the window and take pleasure in the sight of the flowers, before deciding with Frodo what type of pipewed to smoke.

All this, combined with Gandalfs appearence as a weary old man, with a bent back, hides and cloaks the power hidden beneath ready to spring forth when needed. He appears to be like any other old man.
And the genus of it is its not really a disguise, he really does have a bent back and need to lean on his stick, until the moments when he unmasks his true self.
And those times he does do that would I think, on sceen, be much more impressive if there was a physical contrast between the two.