continuing proofs America is wacko

Sounds like you use clear thinking. My view is that clear thinking is the greatest weapon a democracy has to debunk all political and religious ideologies and consumerism. It should be taught in schools and in work places. Though 'teaching' is probably not a good enough term -- perhaps students and employees need to be invited to think logically and the teacher employed as a mentor (catalyser) and not a preacher. (Teacher-preaching is actually something that disturbs me too, and it happens far too much). Mentoring and Preaching get confused very easily and this is a big problem. Evolution has given us problem solving powers, and our brains must be encouraged to employ those powers if we are to continue to develop as a species. (Religion and politics tend to abuse 'logic' and are often it's enemies - just ask George Orwell).

thats why you are El Presidente and we are not.

Where's that 'mystified' emoticon I seem in need of just now?

EDIT: Presidente of Little Forumshire? But I'm still not sure what you mean, Mrs Figg.. I care only for clear thinking not your comments that positively reek of subtlety!

well for all you know I could actually be Mr Toad of Toad Hall.

Poop Poop!

Never mind America. I am wacko.

todally wackadoodle doo.

Bbbrrrrrrrrrrrr! my brain cell just got chilly. Its so cold and alone.

the truth wrote: here is what I wanted Orwell to verify maybe he knows the copper who wrote it if its true . Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts....

From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia:

No, don't know him. (Not sure I'd want to! )

the truth wrote:Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real
Figures from Down Under.
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to
Surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own
Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers
More than $500 million dollars.
The first year results are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,
Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 Percent)!

12 months between (or since) when and when?

the truth wrote:In the state of Victoria

Ha! My employer! The state of Victoria!

the truth wrote:Alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that
While the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not
And criminals still possess their guns!)
While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
Decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically
Upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed
That their prey is unarmed.
There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
Assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.
Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
Safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was
Expended in 'successfully ridding Australian society of guns....'

This is not a careful and logical example of putting facts out there coherently and consistently. I need more context, frankly.

Our cop here seems to be a mindless ranter. I would not expect to hear this kind of thing from a Victorian cop's mouth --- probably more like a Queenslander...

the truth wrote: You Won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or
Members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.

No, I guess you wouldn't.

the truth wrote:The Australian experience speaks for itself. Guns in the
Hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control
Laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note Americans, before it's too late!
Will you be one of the sheeple to turn yours in?
WHY? You will need it.

The general consensus, as far as I can gleen, is that people here are pretty happy we have gun laws. I think most gun laws are seen as pretty sensible, though, of course, there are always dissenting voices. (We are a democracy, after all).

(I feel no need to carry a gun off duty btw. I don't feel paranoia. I'm not an American. I'm an Australia. Guns are not in everyone's pocket here. It's a comforting thought ).

As to my view on 'homicide' figures, I don't think having guns or not having guns bears much on when people want to kill other people. Guns, however, when you decide to kill someone, do seem a more useful means. Stabbing people to death is a lot less clinical, and definitely messier, and with a gun you can shoot one or more folk who are unarmed, I guess, which would not mean you'd have to be a brave murderer.

As to the chance of me getting shot dead sometime by a nutter. Well, it might well be a risk, but not a great one statistically speaking, especially as laws in Victoria (and Oz) are set up to ween out the obvious nuts from getting guns. A sane person who turns nuts and grabs his gun for killing is a worry, but again I would not think it a great risk statistically speaking. The more hands that get themselves on guns, the likelihood of them being the hands of loonies is surely expoentially increased. That's logic. That's mathematical (i.e. probability).

As to gun killings in Oz generally, criminals can get hold of guns, but mostly they use them to kill each other, which would boost our homicide figures, I think, and while potentially increasing our level of criminality would also seem to (perhaps fortuitously?) decrease our number of actual criminals.

Some disgruntled husbands do it to their wives, ex-wives, new boyfriends, new husbands, kids - but they use other means just as readily, if not more readily, as far as I know. Physical force, burnings, slittings...nasty business (gets your hands dirty). I feel guns are a far easier method for killing; clean and efficient for the sender if not the receiver.

So! I think it prudent not to have guns in a loony's hands, or in the hands of a bitter hubby. I try to take guns off disgruntled husbands at the first sign of violence. I'm much happier when one of my disgruntled men's gun/s is in our police station under lock and key. Yes, he still has knives and various bludgeons, and things to adapt as throttling ropes, but these tools of vengeance generally require white hot rage to utilise them while gun-use seems a more sedate and planned form of endgaming. Though this one thought among many I have on the subject. Every circumstance is different. I really don't like to generalize about these things. One size doesn't fit all.

But... less guns would seem to mean less gun crime... My guess, not my answer!

As to our Oz police officer. Well... I have my doubts... If he is one, I think he needs sacking, don't you? At least, he shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun, surely.

Mrs Figg wrote:well for all you know I could actually be Mr Toad of Toad Hall.

Poop Poop!

Is that you, Ally?

I didnt know quite what to think of it Orwell, thats why I wanted your opinion.I did some research myself just about his stats and from what i saw is basically he used figures that where slanted to help make his case ,I honestly dont believe he is even Australian but I could be wrong . From my understanding the right carry ( firearms ) in Aussie has not ever been in your constitution , I could be wrong . This letter was supposedly based on the gun buyback program of 1997 in Aust.

Orwell said I feel no need to carry a gun off duty btw. I don't feel paranoia. I'm not an American. I'm an Australia. Guns are not in everyone's pocket here. It's a comforting thought .
I hope you where not ensenuating all American gun owners are paranoid , because that is not the case at all ,I feel no paranoia at all , I dont carry all the time just when the need warrants it . If thats the case then you are being mislead and probably by mainstream media . I think our own media misportrays most Americans and the doings of our meddlsome govt show us in a bad light a majority of the time ,Just as the movie Crocodile Dundee stereotyped your countrymen.Myself and most Americans I know would give you the shirt off theyre back if you where in need . We are a very proud and stubborn people as you can see from our history ,This country was built off the backs and with the blood of alot of hard working people , unfortunately our society has changed alot IMO from a loss of simple morals and values that a dwindling number of Americans still hold dear , one is respect for your fellow man, another is alot of parents of this generation have not held theyre children accountable for theyre actions and teach them to blame others for their own problems and failures .

The old breed is dying out a the new is what we are left with . when myself and my brothers and sisters where in school you could actually carry a gun into school and use it a prop in a project , you could carry your firearm in your vehicle to school and go hunting or target shooting with your friends after school with no repercussions and people didnt get shot . Unfortunately it is not that way anymore . The other root of our problem with guns is our treatment of the mentally ill or lack of , and allowing them to get their hands on firearms to start with . I appreciate your view and agree with alot of it President Orwell. I have quite a few friends employed in the law enforcement field ranging in rank from patrolmen to Colonel and I have yet to find one who feels gun bans will solve anything in The U.S..

measures such as better criminal background searches /mental health background and banning high capacity clips I am all for , there is no need for citizens to have them just as there is no need for them to have grenade launchers . there are wackos everywhere and yes they will always find a way to kill and maim people but we can take measures to make it harder to do but we will never be able to eliminate it completely. The Vice president is supposed to give his recommendations for gun control on Tuesday I doubt very seriousely you will see anything about trying to ban any firearms . High capacity clips will definately be in there . Senator Diane Fienstien -senate armed services commitee -Calfornia- is pushing for outright gun bans and seizure of weapons from citizens ( turn them in or go to jail ) effectively creating felons of any law abiding citizen that doesnt compy. If that where to happen and I really doubt it will you would see a shit storm just like this guy jones said would happen on the show with Piers Morgan not revolution mind you but protest of un-believable magnatude . You might all think Im a wacky gun owner now but IMO I am a patriot of the truest sence , I fly the dont tread on me flag.

Mrs Figg wrote:well for all you know I could actually be Mr Toad of Toad Hall.

Poop Poop!

I love Toadie. It fascinates me that Frost played him and sang him in the first version. That is until you see what is it Fools and Horses. Then it makes sense.

I think America is great. Of course there are many problems but the country lets so many in, gives them a chance and of course is belittled by others for doing so and even sometimes by those they gave a chance to. They have a lot of problems but every country does. And every country is only as good as the collective people who make it up at any given time. It is easy to criticize but such a vast country with so many opinions, that is amazing it works as well as it does.

the truth wrote:I hope you where not ensenuating all American gun owners are paranoid , because that is not the case at all ,I feel no paranoia at all , I dont carry all the time just when the need warrants it.

I said I wasn't paranoid. I was making no coment on average Americans and their paranoia or lack of it. I am curious to know when "the need warrants it" though? I don't encounter those needs off duty. Rarely do I feel the need even on duty, though I have to carry my semi-auto, and I am generally more likely to need a gun on rather than off duty of course.

the truth wrote:If thats the case then you are being mislead and probably by mainstream media.

Americans carry guns more readily than Australians. If I met an Australian with a gun in his pocket, I'd be surprised - and horrified. If I met an American with a gun in his pocket, I wouldn't be. Because they are so readily carried in American, I probably wouldn't be horrifed to know he or she was carrying. I still would not find it normal, purely because it's not the Australian way.

the truth wrote:I think our own media misportrays most Americans and the doings of our meddlsome govt show us in a bad light a majority of the time. Just as the movie Crocodile Dundee stereotyped your countrymen. Myself and most Americans I know would give you the shirt off their back if you were in need. We are a very proud and stubborn people as you can see from our history. This country was built off the backs and with the blood of alot of hard working people, unfortunately our society has changed a lot IMO from a loss of simple morals and values that a dwindling number of Americans still hold dear, one is respect for your fellow man, another is a lot of parents of this generation have not held their children accountable for their actions and teach them to blame others for their own problems and failures .

I think that paragraph was full of stereotypes, but I don't - generally - disagree. Most peope meet your general criteria for 'good folk.'

the truth wrote: The old breed is dying out a the new is what we are left with. when myself and my brothers and sisters where in school you could actually carry a gun into school and use it a prop in a project, you could carry your firearm in your vehicle to school and go hunting or target shooting with your friends after school with no repercussions and people didnt get shot . Unfortunately it is not that way anymore . The other root of our problem with guns is our treatment of the mentally ill or lack of , and allowing them to get their hands on firearms to start with. I appreciate your view and agree with alot of it President Orwell. I have quite a few friends employed in the law enforcement field ranging in rank from patrolmen to Colonel and I have yet to find one who feels gun bans will solve anything in The U.S..

I think if you need a gun then have one. In Australia we don't think them necessary as something to carry with us everywhere.

the truth wrote:measures such as better criminal background searches /mental health background and banning high capacity clips I am all for, there is no need for citizens to have them just as there is no need for them to have grenade launchers . there are wackos everywhere and yes they will always find a way to kill and maim people but we can take measures to make it harder to do but we will never be able to eliminate it completely. The Vice president is supposed to give his recommendations for gun control on Tuesday I doubt very seriousely you will see anything about trying to ban any firearms . High capacity clips will definately be in there . Senator Diane Fienstien -senate armed services commitee -Calfornia- is pushing for outright gun bans and seizure of weapons from citizens ( turn them in or go to jail ) effectively creating felons of any law abiding citizen that doesnt compy. If that where to happen and I really doubt it will you would see a shit storm just like this guy jones said would happen on the show with Piers Morgan not revolution mind you but protest of un-believable magnatude . You might all think Im a wacky gun owner now but IMO I am a patriot of the truest sence , I fly the dont tread on me flag.

Having a gun doesn't automatically make anyone a whacko, Truth. I know a lot of people - police mainly - who own guns. They don't carry them about with them, but they cetainly have them in their locked gun cabinets. They're hunters mainly and use them to hunt. I don't think they feel any need to carry them about. I don't know what the climate of fear is in America, but I sense it is higher than here. I'd be just as strong about keeping our strict gun laws as you would fight to keep them the way you have them. Fair enough. Australia is not America. You guys seem (generally) to have a different conciousness about gun ownership. I wouldn't want live in America because of all the guns. You would maybe feel uncomfortable living in Australia because most of us don't. I'm not saying you'd be paranoid here (or there), but I think you'd feel odd about it. I'd feel odd in America, i think.

I am curious though, I hear about the Powerful Gun Lobby over there. Does this mean a majority of Americans are pro gun laws as they are, or is it a powerful minority that calls the gun law shots? Not a criticism, overt or veiled, just a genuine question.

Gun ownership is available in many countries,some are stringent & some are lax on their laws covering who & how & why you can hold a gun in your possession. How can we deal with black market distribution of guns ? The "nudge nudge,pay me X amount of bucks & il get you an oozy or which ever" Smuggling guns is rife. I should think many countries could tell you tells of racketeering, How theres always someone that someone knows who could get you this or that. theres always an expert who knows his guns & the best gun for whatever job in hand. The "expert" bothers me, where does he get his knowledge,his training,his contacts ? How do we approach the crimminals who appear & disappear like morning mist ? How is it that guns made in one country,& are known as a gun made only in that country, can turn up miles away in another country ? the same goes for ammunition, each bullet is distinguishable. How can we regulate manufacture of arms,inc bullets etc ?

I still have a hard time getting my head round why so many Americans feel they need to have a gun at all.

In a full democracy there is no need for one to change government- thats kind of the point of democracy, that its a mechanism for peaceful change by the will of the people doing away with the need for armed response to government.

It doesn't seem to make anyone safer- countries with lax gun laws and lots of guns have lots more gun crime than those without.

So apart from hunting, farmers, game keeprs, police, army and those with a clear reason and purpose for having a gun as a tool of their work I just dont get why everyone else would want one.

not sure who is in the majority, I havnt seen any polls that Im confident in.I think alot of people turn to the NRA because they are not sure who else to turn to , I myself dont trust the media in any fashion .I do think there is a percentage of paranoid people , but most of the people I know who are gun owners have them because they hunt and where raised around them .a product of upbringing .
@Petty , I can only answer for myself . Im a hunter , I was brought up on it . my father took me small game and bird hunting especially duck hunting ,So having guns is just a consequence of my upbringing .
I dont carry a handgun around , although some would think I would , One day as my brother and I where riding to work he was shot in the head ( while driving by a dis-gruntled driver , but still neither of us carry all of the time ,only when we are going to work in an area with a bad reputation and high violent crime rate . There is a huge drug problem in the U.S., Meth(Ice ) Heroin , Extacy etc. thats one of the things that drives violent crimes in our culture . Example - If I was working on someones electrical system in an area with alot of drug dealing activity , typically low income government housing areas , I would heve a helper with me and one of us would be keeping watch for any suspect activity around us . Its not uncommon in these areas to walk out to your truck to get a tool and have an unsavory looking individual approach you with unknown intentions , you must be vigilant in these areas as the police cant be everywhere all the time .

I think LeeLee made a comment that relates very well to the US situation .

Is it cos " my guns bigger than your gun!" ? some people feel its a deterant rather than an active weapon ? I dont know, Im just glad we dont have the gun mentality here, wrongo ! Im gonna back track on my words there. Gun ownership & crime amongst the younger generation is climbing, as far as the general public are led to believe, or is it ? I sometimes think its propaganda to dissasociate us from USA because some people feel we are to "cap in hand" with Obama ? (I have no quarrel with any USA citizen !) I think weve got enough going on with Europe & the endless quarrelling. Politics is a devious thing to get involved with. Play the game, your ok, blow the whistle..prepare to face unlimited hell, often from the people you thought were your friends or colleges.

Its not uncommon in these areas to walk out to your truck to get a tool and have an unsavory looking individual approach you with unknown intentions , you must be vigilant in these areas as the police cant be everywhere all the time . -The Truth

Thats true of any western country I would think- its certainly true here if you are called into some of Glasgows more notorious neighbourhoods its no safer- but the chances of anyone wanting to cause you grief having a gun is almost zero because of our gun laws.
And so the feeling you need to equally arm yourself to protect yourself also doesnt exist.

I dont have a problem with guns for hunting- but anyone wanting to hunt should have to go through background and mental health checks, the gun should be licensed only for use in particuar circumstances and gun and ammo should have to be kept seperately and under lock and key when not in use and the relevant authorities should be aware you are in possession of a firearm- those are the rules here at any rate and I dont have any problems with them. As laws go they seem sensible to me.

Until you include "travellers" ! Gypsies, pikeys or all the other names they are known by. These people ARE a law unto themselves! Most of them are arrogant unruly members of a society they dont want to be a part of. And the laws affecting us, dont apply to "travellers".

There is No fix all answer to the problem here , it will take time and enforcement of the laws already on the books . You cant just keep making new laws and expect the problem to go away as a result . People like Sen.Fienstien who just jump up and say lets ban guns , get ready to turn them in or face the consequences need to be booted out of office . We have too many career politicians in the U.S. there need to be term limits, they become power mongers and control freaks who feel that the people serve them instead of them serving the people . Barack Obama was not voted into office by people like me , he and his admin where mostly supported by Hollywood , minorities , women and of course the black vote as many just voted for him because they wanted to have the first Black Pres. There also where decent people who wanted to see CHANGE and they thought they would get it from him. UNfortunately alot of people hav not realized that you cant trust politicians . Poly meaning many, Tician or tic meaning Bloodsucker .

Well fom an outsider point of view Obama seems a hell of a lot saner than the last President you had. I think thats why when Obama was first running he had such huge approval ratings outside the US.

I have to agree with you on that Petty , I have lost all confidence in our Government . The president can only do so much , its our Congress that is the real problem . I didnt vote at all the last two years thats why I dont really complain about him ,I actually think he has some good intentions , BUt as you see Congress will not work with him .Its been the same situation for a long time in Washington , I do feel guilty for not voting . The bickering in Washington needs to stop .

" Barack Obama was not voted into office by people like me , he and his admin where mostly supported by Hollywood , minorities , women and of course the black vote..."

Not trying to be offensive, but looking at that list, I'm not sure America was ever composed of people like you, it's just people like you who had political power. The idea that "Real America" is being taken over is a myth, politics is actually becoming more representative of Real America. I'm not claiming the current situation is necessarily better, just more real...

For not trying to be offensive your post was quite the to the contrary ,What exactly are "people like me" Halfwise . The statement you made seems to me like you call into question the founding fathers vision of america ,I definately take offense , I take offense that your thread states America is Wacko , America was founded on freedom so what is your definition of freedom . the situation is definately real, Part of being free is not having other people constantly searching for ways to to control you . people like me INDEED , It was people like me and my family that have guaranteed your Freedom for the last 200+ years , There are 14 veterans of WWII in my family one of them paid the ultimate price for that freedom , so when you do some more work on changing america try not to trample the flag.

Soory if I offended anyone

seems to me like you call into question the founding fathers vision of america- Truth


My turn to say I dont mean to offend but as an outsider frm a country that is in practise secular when Americans speak of the men who set up your nation, well its sounds like religion.
You use words like vision, Founding Fathers. They aren't your fathers, they were a bunch of immigrant Europeans who displaced and masacred the natives and who then strived and worked bloody hard to create communties they recognised, ie ones like in europe with towns, cities, trains, trams and places for the ladies to buy a nice bustle in and then they didnt want to pay taxes to a distant England (I sympathise there)- the history and beginings of America as a country I find fascinating- but I am equally fascinated by the way Americans can mytholigise it and react to it as if it were something sacred- not just some ideas written down, some good some not so good.

Im not offended by your statement I dont always agree with you or anyone else some times , maybe I over reacted if I did my apology is offered again .I enjoy a debate , I felt like halfwise was labeling me .
there are alot of things in our history we should not be proud of , treatment of the native population ,who I guess are the only true Americans ,slavery which was horrible and never gets any less horrible and Im sure we can come up with more , i think all nations can find things they are not proud of . maybe the way people of my generation speak and feel has something to do with the things we are taught in school . i know curriculum is much different now days , an example of this was when I went to school up north they didnt say alot about the civil war , but in the south it was taught in great depht and southerners have a sence of pride about it . I myself find the civil war a black mark for the south that will never go away . And I am sure it does sound like religeon I live in what is called the Bible belt, you cant even purchase alcohol here on Sunday .