Faramir and other changes

The movies made both Theoden and Theodred about 20 years younger than they were in the book.  That's a decision that I suspect was made relatively early in the writing process.  I still think that Hill gave an excellent performance of the character that was written for the movies, though.

I agree, he did very well with the material. But that only makes me believe he could easily have played an older version just as capably.

I have no reason to think otherwise.

And that of course would have been better because as an actor he could have drawn more on the richer text of Tolkiens original, written for an older character to create his own.  

I also liked Hill very much, and this reminded me of a question that came to me when I was rereading LotR earlier this year. In your edit, Petty, you have taken out, if I recall correctly, Theoden's line "so, it is before the walls of Minas Tirith our doom will be decided" (or something like that), even if this line is in the book somewhere, though I think it is Eomer who says it. Why did you edit it out?

Not for the line itself, but for its timing and placement.
Pj makes it like a pronouncement of some revelation, when by then everyone and their cat knows thats where the big fight is going to be. It just made Theoden seem a bit slow on the uptake to me, like he had only just realised where he was mustering an army to ride too.

Aha, I see. Well, it's a shame, it's a good line

I totally disagree that Theoden should have been played older, I think it was necessary cinematically that Theoden should have transformed from an old decrepit puppet of Saruman into a strong and virile leader. He looked at home on the battlefield, Gandalf had sloughed off his infirmity. It was heartbreaking to see him die because he looked as if he had still so much to live for, like he could have been a great king. This is one instance where the change in age of a character I thought an improvement. I loved the original Theoden of the book, but I think Bernard Hill is now how I think of Theoden.

Hill's beard was too New Zealand. It should have been more... well more like the beards one finds in the hills just north west of Oxford England.

In my opinion.

Or maybe like the beards on Kentish folk living between 800 AD to just after the Norman conquest. Not NZ in any case.

It could have been Old Zealand at least.

the beard I mean

New Zealand Beard??????

LOL

Perfect clip Mrs Figg.

Hill's beard was kinda green though... just sayin thanks to Petty for that last part

I liked Bernard's performance too. I hated that they made the character so cowardly to begin with but that wasn't his fault.

I can kind of overlook the whole "I will not risk open war" thing, even if taking the people to Helm's Deep is geographically absurd. But I never understood what they were going for with the whole "lol nope fuck Gondor" thing in ROTK. People have tried to convince me that it makes Theoden's decision to eventually ride to Gondor more meaningful, but they never show him grappling with the decision or changing his mind. Plus it shits on the idea from the book that Rohan and Gondor are long and faithful allies.

I loved both Bernard Hill and John Nobles' performances...though I do think that they could have used more lines from the book, period.
That's the gripe I have with Aragorn - they Americanized his speak so much that he lost the essential nobility that he had in the books. But OH NO, he, wouldn't be cool enough, if he spoke in a tone that befitted Tolkien's careful choice of language! Boo Hoo!

Sorry. I rant on about this endlessly, you'll see. I'm a purist. I freely admit it. Gaw, I fell like I'm standing in an AA meeting. "Hi, I'm Yavanna, and I'm a purist."
"HI, YAVANNA!"
I've read LOTR via the Red Book, The Hobbit via the Green Book, and the Sil so many times that I can't keep count anymore. I go to it when nothing else can quench my thirst for comfort."
The crowd nods with understanding...
"I admit that while I liked the movies, I hated all the changes, especially those of Aragorn and Faramir."
More nods from the crowd.
"I admit that I can't change what's already been sealed in celluloid, and try everyday to live with them, may Tolkien guide the way."
*Plop down in my seat, totally drained from the experience while the crowd claps and looks for the next willing victim...*

You're gonna fit in well.

Some people here are touchy about the label of purist, but I've always tried to make it my own and define it how I see fit. Although Petty has sort of stolen my thunder since he's more "pure" than I am.

I also disliked Gandalfs reaction to Theodens decision- its fucking stupid- what was Gandalfs alternative plan? That they all wait at completely indefensible Edoras until 10 thousand orcs descend on them?
In the book Gandalf encourages the plan to Helms Deep and PJ offers no explanation at all for why when they get there its already full of people and soldiers.

But then given the whole magic future seeing teleporting elves of Lothlorien I dont suppose I should be surprised nothing else makes any sense



 Yavanna! You definitely get a barrel of buckie (but Im still not paying for it)

I think that the 'I will not risk open war' comment makes him sound like an idiot of a leader and like his country has nobody left to defend it... so much so that they are happy to abandon their capital to be ransacked.

The book, I thought, was very good at making it seem like the fog of war had descended and that there was confusion as to what was going on. Helm's Deep was only chosen as a rallying point for Rohan's forces while they worked out what in the blue hell had happened at the Fords. I think that would have made the whole situation much more tense.

It is actually the 'fuck Gondor' bit that I could understand more as it wasn't like Gondor was helping them... not that they knew why at the time as it was pretty much cut off.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
But then given the whole magic future seeing teleporting elves of Lothlorien I dont suppose I should be surprised nothing else makes any sense

From Lothlorien but sent by Elrond don't forget.

 Yeah via telepathic email with Galadriel  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I also disliked Gandalfs reaction to Theodens decision- its fucking stupid- what was Gandalfs alternative plan? That they all wait at completely indefensible Edoras until 10 thousand orcs descend on them?
In the book Gandalf encourages the plan to Helms Deep and PJ offers no explanation at all for why when they get there its already full of people and soldiers.

You can't really make this comparison though, because Theoden's Helm's Deep plan is totally different in the movie and the book. In the book, he sets out from Edoras with a few thousand horsemen looking to fight Saruman (while the civilians of Edoras evacuate to nearby Dunharrow), but he goes to Helm's Deep when he learns just how scattered and defeated the army in the Westfold was. In the movie, he leads a column of refugees protected only by his royal guard to Helm's Deep with the idea of hiding there, despite the fact that this means taking the civilian population across the open plains towards Saruman's advancing army. He also leaves Edoras solely with the intent of hiding in a fortress, rather than looking to fight Saruman head-on.

Lancebloke wrote:I think that the 'I will not risk open war' comment makes him sound like an idiot of a leader and like his country has nobody left to defend it... so much so that they are happy to abandon their capital to be ransacked.

The book, I thought, was very good at making it seem like the fog of war had descended and that there was confusion as to what was going on. Helm's Deep was only chosen as a rallying point for Rohan's forces while they worked out what in the blue hell had happened at the Fords. I think that would have made the whole situation much more tense.

It is actually the 'fuck Gondor' bit that I could understand more as it wasn't like Gondor was helping them... not that they knew why at the time as it was pretty much cut off.

I can agree with this, and I'm not going to try to defend the changes to TTT since I didn't really like them. I just thought they worked better on their own terms than the changes to ROTK did. Although I'll agree that by the standards of movie!Gondor, Theoden didn't necessarily have much reason to help them, but that's a rant for another thread.

despite the fact that this means taking the civilian population across the open plains towards Saruman's advancing army.- Eldo

Even that plan is better than Gandalfs lets just all sit here where we dont have any hope at all of defending ourselves plan.

And when Gandalf says "he is leading them into a trap" I just want to punch him.  

I mean at least with Theoden's plan if they did get attacked on the open lain they have some chance thanks to their excellent cavalry skills.

Theoden's options are pretty limited though, since the movie has Eomer leading all the loyal cavalry of Edoras away. Theoden's commanding a grand total of like 60 dudes who can fight until he gets to Helm's Deep.

Thats still better than doing bugger all and just sitting at Edoras and waiting.

Of course he should have been sending the civvies to Dunharrow anyway not leading them towards the enemy, but thats another whole other crabbit explosion  

Yeah, the screenwriters have no excuse whatsoever for the Dunharrow thing since they use that location in ROTK.