US Presidential Election 2012

Getting all humans to be as selfless as to agree to and abide by them is the tricky bit.- Orwell

To misquote Aragron slightly "Need will drive them."

As to Plan B I fail to see why any end of the world plan would not involve prostitutes!

Agreed that science is a tool. But to assume that it is in some way a tool only for good seems incredibly naive.

During the entire history of science, the majority of its efforts have been directed towards greed and power, particularly toward military advancement. But bigger guns don't always mean a better world. Right now the United States is spending something like $80 billion on military research and development annually, while still being hesitant to address the question of climate change. Are these really the people you want to rest all your hopes on?

Our recent economic troubles have a lot to do with the use of mathematics to rape the real estate and stock markets, so we know it can be a powerful tool, but my question is, when do the good guys get to start using it?

Kafria wrote:Why this assumtion that christians expect the earth to be our only home? A bit small scale thinking to me. God made the earth for man, to do that he had to create the whole universe. So naturally - the whole universe is for man!

If I land on a planet in my Carrotship - with my farmer/astronaut friend David - I'll be kind of disappointed to see you Kafria. It's not you so much as your Christiamity that's the problem here.

Orwell wrote:
I didnt know you didn't like my name? Orwell McOdo! What's wrong with it?

Btw, so you liked the Carrot Plan (Plan A) then? That's GREEEAT!

No problem with McOdo. I was afraid you were using Banks. Carrots it is. I'll start planting tomorrow.

David H wrote:Our recent economic troubles have a lot to do with the use of mathematics to rape the real estate and stock markets, so we know it can be a powerful tool, but my question is, when do the good guys get to start using it?

All Good guys become Bad guys when they achieve Power. It's one of the eleven Immutable Laws of Humanity, Davo.

The military angle is interesting- the modern computer was born out of a need to crack German codes- I've lost count of the everyday materials that were a result of the space race. Robots advancing human knowledge on the surface of mars began as devices to go in and deactivate bombs or get reconiansence from dangerous places. Many medical advances came about on the battlefield.
Its always been aninteresting moral question to me- would you do without many of the everyday items of the modern world- internet, mobile phones, exploration of other planets etc if it meant there had never been any wars and all those deaths?

I have never viewed science as good or bad- its neutral. For every scoientist developing a new and cunning way of killing people there is another developing cures for disease. The difference is rarely in the ambition of the people but the ambition of governments whose mind sets have never changed from viewing every other country as a rival and potential threat. Humans are still as tribal as ever- when push comes to shove I want my tribe to win.

Good law Orwell- very true.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Good law Orwell- very true.

I'm still working on other ten.

Orwell wrote:
All Good guys become Bad guys when they achieve Power. It's one of the eleven Immutable Laws of Humanity, Davo.

Which does bring up one point. I'm assuming we're agreed that I'll be captain of the Carrot Ship, right?

I don't know.... What say we get it built first and then we'll discuss the Command structure. That's sense, I reckon, Davo. I only hope you've got enough space to grow enough carrots. I'm assuming we'll need a lot of carrots. Admittedly, I'm no mathematician.

Trying to get this thread back on topic even slightly there have been a bunch more caucuses in the past week or so. Santorum won Colorado, Missouri, and Minnesota by Romney-esque margins. These are his first victories since the Iowa caucuses which started things off over a month ago so they make him something of a contender again. On the other hand, it's doubtful if he can translate this into success in primary elections in larger states.

Also, Ron Paul still has yet to win a single state. He's the only surviving candidate who can say that (because he's such a rebel?).

NB 3000th post!

Was watching Fox news for a giggle and they were discussing countires which are arming themselves and are not friendly to the US, which provoked this comment from their correspondent;

"The only reason people respect you is if you have more than they do."

- American thinking summed up perfectly in one sentence?!!

So presumably you cant get people to respect you by showing them respect first, or by leading by example in freedoms and human liberities or by participating in fair trade or uniting in common causes like the environment and poverty.

Does explain the US foreign policy for decades rather well though and why America provoked so much hatred and resentment it has resulted in two major wars and several civil wars as a result and the collapse of the American economy (and thus everyone elses too).

- American thinking summed up perfectly in one sentence?!! -Petty

Sad to say, it is the impression we often get.

I suspect that attitude is a result of many Americans (especially those on Fox) not respecting any other countries and assuming they all share that same attitude.

What can I say? There's some truth to this. But it's no more fair to judge America by our Rupert Murdock media than to judge the UK by yours. They consciously focus on building Xenophobia to build ratings.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Was watching Fox news for a giggle

And are you giggling now? Don't do this! They thrive on feeding controversy, and you're buying into it. Just DON'T! They're EVIL!

Look, I've traveled a bit, and I've talked to a lot of people around the world. In my experience the same greed and ambition you're talking about can be found in slightly different flavors throughout the developed and developing world. So can generosity and selflessness, though it never gets the same coverage in the press.

Because of it's size, America's actions have greater effects on the world than most, but the underlying strengths and weaknesses are the same that we read of in Shakespeare and Homer. It doesn't make it right, but we didn't invent it.

I think the difference is David although these things exist everywhere else nowhere else promotes them as postive cultural traits like the US does- the rest of us tend to be more ashamed of these aspects to our society and hope for some sort of eventul reform of them- not to promote them as a supposed force for good.

And Fox makes me both giggle and very afraid- not at the possability anything they say is true but that it is so popular and that so many Americans get all their news from it.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Fox makes me both giggle and very afraid- not at the possability anything they say is true but that it is so popular and that so many Americans get all their news from it.

That's exactly why I read the Sun.

I read it for much the same reason and to find out what it is the government would like me to be thinking- very useful that.

But whilst The Sun is both popular and promotes a similar agenda to Fox news (being Murdoch enterprises both) that tone and attitude, even when its held, is rarely reflected by public figures, even less rarely by politicians. In the US, especially right now, I have heard statements from Republican candidates that would finish off a UK politicians carrer overnight if they had expressed similar views. Its that the atttitude of America the Great, America with a divine right to lead the world, America as the worlds dominant military power etc being echoed not by vested interest groups like Fox but by the political classes themselves which is not only worrying looking in from the outside, but has also led to the current situation both economically and militarily. This attitude of the US, expressed for decades through its foreign policy has led us all to the position we are in now.

We're really not in disagreement. There's plenty to criticize. I was just wishing you'd picked a more worthy source so we could have had a better discussion. "I heard on Fox...." or "I read in the Sun...." is setting the intellectual bar awfully low.

Let me tell you a story of one of my most awkward situations when traveling. On March 21, 2003 I was sick of all the jingoism as the Iraq invasion was starting. I took a small rucksack and bought a cheap ticket to Eastern Europe. Then I started working my way SE towards Turkey as the flood of Iraqi refugees came NW, talking to everybody I met. I often do this when I think American foreign policy sucks and I need to get my own facts.

I was the only American in a small Iranian run hostel that was half full of Iraqi refugees with all their possessions in piles of cardboard boxes. They were mostly stunned, not angry. They asked me reasonable questions and I had been trying my best to explain where the American insanity was coming from.

Then we were all watching CNN International on the TV in the common room.
The commentators spent 20 minutes out of the hour discussing the effects on the US stock market if Saddam Hussein were killed

SICKENING!

If I could have renounced my citizenship at that moment I probably would have.

Someone linked me to this on another forum and I would recommend it to everyone interested in American politics and society. I'm sure there won't be anything too shocking for some people but I think it's worth giving a watch.



My only complaint is that when they showed the clip of Ron Paul being asked about health care that I posted back on the first page of this thread, they neglected to mention that the scenario involved a person who could afford health care but chose not to buy it. I still think the response from the candidates was horrible, as I said back then, but the way the BBC edited the footage was somewhat misleading.

David H wrote:Let me tell you a story of one of my most awkward situations when traveling. On March 21, 2003 I was sick of all the jingoism as the Iraq invasion was starting. I took a small rucksack and bought a cheap ticket to Eastern Europe. Then I started working my way SE towards Turkey as the flood of Iraqi refugees came NW, talking to everybody I met. I often do this when I think American foreign policy sucks and I need to get my own facts.

I was the only American in a small Iranian run hostel that was half full of Iraqi refugees with all their possessions in piles of cardboard boxes. They were mostly stunned, not angry. They asked me reasonable questions and I had been trying my best to explain where the American insanity was coming from.

Then we were all watching CNN International on the TV in the common room.
The commentators spent 20 minutes out of the hour discussing the effects on the US stock market if Saddam Hussein were killed

SICKENING!

If I could have renounced my citizenship at that moment I probably would have.

If good folks leave the land or simply give up, only the idiots are left to rule.

Eldo, I saw a few minutes of the program, very sad and disturbing. I hope to find time to see the whole thing later.

Amarië wrote:



If good folks leave the land or simply give up, only the idiots are left to rule.

I know quite a few Americans who went abroad for most of George W Bush's second term, teaching or working in refugee camps in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Haiti. But they mailed home their ballots for the 2008 election. I don't count that as giving up, rather it's doing what they can as individuals to correct the problem.

I was watching Obama's inauguration in the northern Philippines with one of these friends. When Obama finished the oath of office, she turned to me and said "I think it's OK for me to go home now."

That's why it seems a little harsh to judge us all by the Fox standard.

David H wrote:

Amarië wrote:



If good folks leave the land or simply give up, only the idiots are left to rule.

I know quite a few Americans who went abroad for most of George W Bush's second term, teaching or working in refugee camps in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Haiti. But they mailed home their ballots for the 2008 election. I don't count that as giving up, rather it's doing what they can as individuals to correct the problem.

Um what now? I suppose I must have been extremely unclear in my post since you interpreted it like that. Sorry about that, sadly I am not good at translating my thoughts into words, especially when I am tried. You said you felt like renouncing your citizenship at that moment, and that is what I thought of when I wrote "leave the land " We all should travel more and gain more understanding of what goes on in the world.

I should probably have said: I am moved by your story and I can understand that you felt like that at that time and place, but if good people like you give up (i.e. don't vote or turn your back to the country altogether) then only idiots are left to rule (or to vote and/or in other ways decide what direction the country should move in).

You say: Fox is evil, ignore them. I totally get that you don't want to be associated with them or their views any more than I would. Generally speaking, and ideally, evil should not be ignored, the trolls need to be confronted and dragged into the sunlight and exposed for what they are. (And Petty loves a fiery discussion, so we have not seen the last of quotes and questions like this.)

And Petty loves a fiery discussion- Amarie

Who me? Never!

David I am not wishing to associate you with Fox just becasue you are an American what worries me is the sort of bile Fox news contributes also can be heard in the mouths of US politicans. I am under no delusion that there will be a sizeable chunk of the US population who feel like you do but whereas in other developed countries the Fox end of the scale would be a minority issue it seems like in the US it is a majority one.
A nation the size of America, with the military power of America and a majority whose thinking is led by this vision of an all powerful all dominating super power is frankly a terrifying prospect.

Thanks for the clarification A. The confusion was equally my fault. I recognized what you meant about people giving up, and it reminded me of all the people I know who aren't giving up but are trying to make a difference. But I should have acknowledged your point before I went on to tell the next story, though. Your point was well made and deserved the recognition.

I've noticed that Petty gets pretty lonely down here in the Big Bad Serious sometimes, which is why I come downstairs and engage him from time to time. It's all in sport. Sometimes the issues under discussion are things I take very personally, and I think it's appropriate to let that show, but please don't ever think I've taken offense. Life is too short for that!