The Rings of Power Post-watch Discussion (Spoilers)

By the way (spoiler alert). . .

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. . . in the episode I saw last night, I think (?) it's this same ork (shown with wife and baby) that nearly kills
ROP-Galadriel (she'd been captured by orks), before "Adar" (means "Father" in Sindarin) stops him. ROP-Galadriel then swiftly turns the tables on Adar, threatening him with some sort of pointed object, but then Adar says that they have the same adversary -- cut to ROP-Annatar in ROP-Eregion.

Wait...you saw an episode?

I've seen them all.

That doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to comment about any of it; but maybe once in a while. I think I already gave my one-word review of season one here?

If not, here it is: yuk!

I didn't expect your constitution could withstand having your Tolkien purity so sullied.

I think we nearly all dragged ourselves through the first season as a matter of honor. I don't think I have the fortitude for the second season.

I've watched all episodes as well. I just tell myself it's not Tolkien it's something similar.

The question is, having watched it and knowing for a certainty that it's not Tolkien, have you found it engaging enough to continue watching? Bit of a mixed bag for me.

{{ You are watching RoP Elthir? I don't know if I should be impressed at your fortitude or disappointed at your standards!

Not that Ive given too much thought ...but my notion on orcs breeding- its done on something close to an industrial scale and organised as such, which is why we never see females, they are in a constant state of breeding and rasing, this and the possibility that orc pregnancy lasts less time, perhaps 4-6 months is based on the fact orcs seem to be able to recover their numbers with surprising speed compared to the normal breeding patterns of humans. I suspect orc 'adulthood' comes sooner as well, with a shorter childhood and puberty, orcs probably go to war from about 10-12 years old as their main weapon in battle is not their strength or skill but sheer numbers and ferocity.
Uruk-Hai seem to be the product of breeding humans back with orcs, this would support the notion, given the two can still breed that they are corrupted elves and men, as those species can breed together. Its also possible the process does not always produce bigger stronger orcs, but also sometimes the opposite, weaker nastier humans, such as the squint-eyed southerner Sam thought looked more than half an orc at Bree.}}

If we go by what Peejers showed us, that Orcs are encapsulated in a kind of gooey sack and they are dug up from what looked like slimey, muddy earth, that hints to me of mass production with no actual physical interaction by males and females. I dont recall Tolkien even suggesting Orcs as being either male or female ? it was a given that these were thick set brutish male Orcs especially Uruk Hai's, who I felt were produced for fighting and war and for no other reason at all. Uruk Hai, Orc and maybe Goblin farming, The scene Peejers gave us of an Uruk Hai being dug up reminded me of the Matrix where 1000's of "bodies" are waiting to burst out of pods.  

Remember that Tolkien once referred to orcs being "spawned", which implies growth outside the body. But I get the feeling his thoughts on orcs were as variable as those on Galadriel.

Hmm.

I'm interested in the visuals of ROP.

Curiosity in general.

I probably wouldn't turn away "in the middle" (of seeing) a train-wreck.

Ork Reproduction

JRRT, from a letter to Mrs Munby, 1963: "There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known".

Also according to Tolkien, orks reproduce after "manner of the Children of Ilúvatar"

Who are the Children? We already know how men and woman multiply of course. And with respect to Elves, Tolkien notes that it was "the act of bodily union" that achieved marriage. And we know that Elven children were "born", that Elven women have wombs (NOME), and indeed notably here, that Elves and Men can have children together.

Tolkien also relates the horribility of Men mating with Orks, producing. . .  well, see below! So anyway, basically, if we know how Men multiply, and they can produce offspring with both Elves and Orks, surely this is achieved in the usual sexual way? No?

I think "after the manner of the Children" is pretty clear on its own, with JRRT making sure the Reader knows that orks indeed multiplied sexually, like other folk.

Uruk

I won't give my full argument (here in this post, if ever) as to why I believe the Uruks/Uruk-hai are distinct from the Half-orcs, but here are a few pieces to possibly chew on:

"In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath." Appendix A

And we know the term Uruk-hai means "Ork-folk" (PE 17) -- technically it means "Great-ork-folk" considering that the word uruk came to be distinguished from snaga (Appendix F) -- and in my opinion Uruk-hai is just an in-story plural way to refer to Uruks without the -s, since that's an anglicization.

Another bit: when Tolkien writes (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed Text X) about Saruman's breeding program he calls the results "Orc-men" and "Men-orcs" (half one thing, half the other thing), which are terms that easily relate to his term Half-orcs from The Lord of the Rings, wherein we read, for example:

"[Merry speaking]. . . And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were."

"I thought of him too,' said Aragorn. 'We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep. It seems plain now that that Southerner was a spy of Saruman's; but whether he was working with the Black Riders, or for Saruman alone, I do not know. It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league, and when they are cheating one another.'"

Anyway, there's much more concerning that topic, but my conclusion teases out as follows:

A) The Uruk-hai (anglicized plural Uruks) hail first from Mordor

2) Some Uruks begin serving Saruman

B) Saruman also breeds Orks with Men, producing tall, "man-high" kinds of Half-orks

4) Some of these Half-orks are too "ork-faced" [Merry's "goblin-faces"] to be used as spies, while others can be spies.

L) In case I forgot something

I have been called a "racist" by several people in a Lord of the Rings-adjacent Discord server for my statements. How shall I ever recover...

(The topic had moved onto the Hollywood double-standard where white cultures get diversified, while non-white cultures do not.)

halfwise wrote:The question is, having watched it and knowing for a certainty that it's not Tolkien, have you found it engaging enough to continue watching?  Bit of a mixed bag for me.

I'll keep watching till the end. There's talk of canceling the show after this series which will be a shame. Would like to see how it ends.

{{ You want another 3 series of it after this?!! }}

( he'll need therapy )

On a positive note, in one scene, they had "ROP-Galadriel" wear her hair upon her head like a crown.

But generally speaking about ROP, see my sig by Mrs Figg.

Apparently the following happened in recent episodes:

Elrond and Galadriel share a lingering kiss on the lips ...no I am not joking, and I don't know the proper context.. I don't believe it is intended to be romantic...but despite what the show's timeline suggests Galadriel is canonically Elrond's mother in law

Apparently The Stranger/Meteor Man has been confirmed to be Gandalf...in the books Gandalf is the last of the Wizards to arrive in Middle Earth long after Sauron's return was discovered, he lands by ship in Lindon and his arrival is seen by Cirdan was discovers his true indentity and voluntarily gives his ring to Gandalf.

The italics above were a master stroke. No further embellishment needed.

malickfan wrote: Elrond and Galadriel share a lingering kiss on the lips ...no I am not joking, and I don't know the proper context.. I don't believe it is intended to be romantic...

Spoiler Space But Not Much



I'd say this is intended to look like a (at least possible) "last goodbye" moment, which of course Adar allows, which then allows Elrond to secretly hand Galadriel a clasp (I think it was a clasp) to help her escape.  

Before this: Elven Riders charge a bunch of Orks!

But Adar suddenly reveals ROPGaladriel in a cage, an ork holding something pointy to her throat -- so instead of a clash of forces here, we the audience visit a gloomy tent with Elrond and Adar talking (instead of Gil-galad and Adar talking, for some reason), with ROPGaladriel nearby. . .  and so on to this meeting of lips.

And as to how the actual kiss plays to the audience, I'll leave that to the observer.

but despite what the show's timeline suggests Galadriel is canonically Elrond's mother in law

I'm not sure when we are (besides the Second Age), since the show has pushed historical events together.

In the first season I think ROPGaladriel mentioned that she thought Celeborn was dead. Or did I dream that!

Apparently The Stranger/Meteor Man has been confirmed to be Gandalf...

Sarcasm Alert: Yeah, I've been on the edge of my seat for that reveal. Cough.

Generally speaking, in my opinion, this episode (seven) is at least in the running for silliest episode yet. It includes some sort of Halbrannatarian time loop in which ROPCelebrimbor is not experiencing the battle of Eregion all around him. Eventually he figures out something is wrong, due, in part, to a "mouse glitch" in the "matrix", and at last he flings a hammer at Halbrannatar, missing him but breaking a window, and thus the poor Elf finds out what's really happening.

"Now" his working space is basically destroyed -- so his tower has been hit by enemy fire in at least some measure, and he even looks at least slightly wounded.

Elvish tears of anguish ensue.

Then, more silliness.

I haven't seen episode eight yet.