Christopher Tolkien has passed away aged 95

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/16/jrr-tolkiens-son-christopher-dies-aged-95

https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/epm420/christopher_tolkien_has_died/



It's very hard to put into words the impact of his work promoting and protecting his father's literary legacy, his decades of as posthumus author and editor of his father's writings are arguably just as important in understanding his father's literary world as the original works themselves (and I know that many of our bookshelves were look very different without this work) and landmark works of scholarship in their own right.

R.I.P Mr Tolkien.

Yes, Thanks to the Tolkien family my bookshelf would be devoid of some of the greatest work ever. The world & all its inhabitants are so real you could just reach out & touch it. Tolkien made something so special its as famous as King Arthur, & feels just as real. We want it to be real. That is the mark for me of a great writer. Even tho members of the family may be passing by in this world, JRR Tolkien makes me feel certain they are in another world, Middle Earth, & there they will be forever. Fighting battles, winning, showing us courage & endurance, never giving up on love, paying back with revenge, all the feelings I know Ive got but keep buried. Thank you Christopher for what you've done.

Yep, Tolkien would be just another author if it weren't for the depth Christopher brought to his work.

that's very sad. RIP Mr Tolkien.

As I don't have the adequate words to express my gratitude to Christopher Tolkien for his work, I guess a simple, but very heartfelt (and with much respect), thank you, will have to do.

Haven't been here much lately, but had to drop by for this, in any case.

I can't believe he's gone. I was talking about him at the bookstore just a few days ago saying how he's getting on in years...

{{ I feel weve lost the champion crabbit defender of Tolkien purity in adaptatons, the last guardian against the crass monetization of his fathers work. A sad day.
But he did his father and his fathers legacy proud and we are so much the richer in our Tolkien for him.

Also nothing like a dead dude to bring some old faces out! Good to see you RA and Elthir. }}

This is heavy news. Christopher Tolkien was never a very relatable figure to me, not like his father, but I owe him so much for his work. This has the feel of a passing of an era to me, if that isn't too portentous a way of putting it.

No Forest, it does have an end of an era feel. Will the younger Tolkiens be defenders of the Great Tolkiens work or will the big bucks slowly turn their minds to blancmange ? I wonder if Peejers has anything to say on this, about Christopher passing ? Last of the home guard.

I doubt if PJ read anything put out by Christopher Tolkien. The other members of the Coven definitely have.

Boyens was noted to be the 'expert' and sounding board by Jackson and Walsh regarding book lore, though IIRC she said it an interview around the time of the first hobbit film that she hadn't read The Silmarillion in almost 20 years (though in fairness that particular tome is hard going for even more die hard LOTR book fans), I wouldn't be surprised if none of them had read Unfinished Tales or the H.O.M.E etc through, I mean how many of us have? (and as the film rights didn't cover those books it's not especially relevant anyway) both of the film trilogies contracted various Tolkien Scholars in an advisory capacity (i.e help with developing the 'neo-elvish' languages etc) some of whom no doubt may have pointed them towards Christopher Tolkien's books for additional source material to draw inspiration or references from.

Of the cast members, I know Richard Armitage had read The Silmarillion and The Annotated Hobbit+The History Of the Hobbit, and some of the props/set designs in the films reference things from the other books.

azriel wrote:No Forest, it does have an end of an era feel. Will the younger Tolkiens be defenders of the Great Tolkiens work or will the big bucks slowly turn their minds to blancmange ? I wonder if Peejers has anything to say on this, about Christopher passing ?  Last of the home guard.  

I'm wondering who, if anyone, will take over as Literary executor/figurehead of The Tolkien Estate, Christopher Tolkien had resigned from the latter position maybe a year before the amazon series was announced but rather interestingly made no announcement regarding his other role, there's still quite a lot of unpublished writing by Tolkien senior (though whether any of those writings would be commercially successful is a different matter...)
, and no doubt the successor will have their own ideas and approach moving forward.

It's still interesting to note that the Tolkien Estate has direct involvement with the forthcoming Amazon LOTR TV series, a TV series that very much involves and may make 'big bucks'...certainly a different approach and attitude to that of 15 years ago...

I think the Tolkien family feels that since Christopher did the heavy lifting but was too old to continue, they may as well reap the dividends. Would anyone else in the family be able to take off where he left off? Hardly. I don't see their licensing the rights to Amazon to be a bad move, and since they have not been selling rights off all over the place I'd call this a judicious experiment.

halfwise wrote:I think the Tolkien family feels that since Christopher did the heavy lifting but was too old to continue, they may as well reap the dividends.  Would anyone else in the family be able to take off where he left off? Hardly.  I don't see their licensing the rights to Amazon to be a bad move, and since they have not been selling rights off all over the place I'd call this a judicious experiment.

That's a very fair point Halfy, my disappointment/crabbit rage at The Hobbit films soured me on the idea of further adaptations/commercialism of the books for a long time, and I initially greeted the announcement of the Amazon series with little more than muted skepticism, but with the passage of time I think I've gained a much more healthy attitude, why shouldn't the family make a TV series if they feel it is an idea with merit? The books will always be there unaltered, and any adaptation is sure to get fans talking and bring new people to the books (as the LOTR films did with me) and it might end up being great on its own merits anyway as a bonus, Middle Earth belongs to all fans in a way, and I think both Tolkien's, father and son would be amazed and rightly proud of the legacy they have left.

But with the passage of time I think I've gained a much more healthy attitude Malick

{{ You dont want to do that! Stay crabbit I say only way to cope!  I mean look at this Amazon lark-  its probably going to pander to PJ's fuckastrophy, its going to be shot by the NZ tourist board again in landscapes that have a few passable ME locations and lots that are totally wrong for major locations like Gondor or Rohan, and its got a cast of baby-faced children.
Its already got enough to provoke the crabbit before we get to how they will probably basterize the work, fill it with modern dialogue and language and subvert it inorder to rub social messaging so hard in our face itll smell like Greta Thurnberg in a global warming inspired forest fire!!! Oh and all men will be evil, but especially white ones.  Place your politically correct bets- well dont as betting is probably an evil tool of the patriachry used to supress and control elderly women through bingo halls. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Its already got enough to provoke the crabbit before we get to how they will probably basterize the work, fill it with modern dialogue and language and subvert it inorder to rub social messaging so hard in our face itll smell like Greta Thurnberg in a global warming inspired forest fire!!! Oh and all men will be evil, but especially white ones.  Place your politically correct bets- well dont as betting is probably an evil tool of the patriachry used to supress and control elderly women through bingo halls. }}

This is something I fear. Christopher Tolkien was a bulwark for a long time and now Amazon has the television rights. This is the worst sort of climate for anything to get remade. Everything has to have that sort of lens nowadays.

If you read the Amazon thread you'll see our fears of this becoming Beleriand Hills 90210. Most of the actors are so young.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:But with the passage of time I think I've gained a much more healthy attitude Malick

{{ You dont want to do that! Stay crabbit I say only way to cope!  I mean look at this Amazon lark-  its probably going to pander to PJ's fuckastrophy, its going to be shot by the NZ tourist board again in landscapes that have a few passable ME locations and lots that are totally wrong for major locations like Gondor or Rohan, and its got a cast of baby-faced children.
Its already got enough to provoke the crabbit before we get to how they will probably basterize the work, fill it with modern dialogue and language and subvert it inorder to rub social messaging so hard in our face itll smell like Greta Thurnberg in a global warming inspired forest fire!!! Oh and all men will be evil, but especially white ones.  Place your politically correct bets- well dont as betting is probably an evil tool of the patriachry used to supress and control elderly women through bingo halls. }}

I think as regards social messaging and diversity Doctor Who has poisoned the well for me personally. The BBC has let it run amok. I was watching His Dark Materials, there are about three white faces in the whole shebang. Literally one white male in the whole show. But that's fine, its supposed to be partly set in modern England and I probably wouldn't even have noticed it if it hadn't been for Dr Who making me take notice and take me out of the story by thinking about the BBC 'doing it again'. If they take LOTR and try to shove diversity in just because some people were moaning about Black Elves, then its going to be another Hobbit and lets all spot the Black Laketowner and Pakistani Gondorian. Why not go full-on Legend of the Seeker and have Maori Hobbits.

I'm sure you've heard that LotR had Maori all over. Aside from the redoubtable Lawrence Makori there was a group that kept showing up to be extras. For one scene they put blonde wigs on them, set them running around in the background and referred to them as the "Bro-han". But it wasn't done for diversity.

yes I knew about the maori extras, its obvious they gave work to the locals, that's the same as giving extra work to Irish people when GOT was filming in Dublin. What I object to are the 'Black Elves' whiners.

{{ The problem with diversity, at least on the BBC, is its not representational, if it were we'd see a lot less non-white faces on our TV.
The result of the last census gave the following percentages of the Uk population from ethnic minorities-

asian- 6.9
black 3.0
mixed 2.0
other ethnic 0.9

(And a hell of a lot of them are in London and surrounds where 37% of the population is non-British born).

And if we take Who as a good example of the diversity drive at the BBC its set in Sheffield, and of all the folk we have seen in Sheffield about 90% are ethnic.
The actual stas for Sheffield are its 85% white with Indian/Pakistani (not sure which Yaz is) making up only 8% of the city and blacks just 3.6%.
Yet anyone who didnt know this and went solely on viewing Who would assume Sheffield was a city with a very large immigrant population. Its not. And its actual whiteness is in no way reflected in the show. Even the 'fam' mix is a statistical unlikely for Sheffield as out of three of them 2 are from ethnic minorities and only 1 is white British in a city 85% white.
So its not that there should not be diverstiy, but its clear it been skewed so far in favour of promoting diversity its become unrealistic, unrepresentive of the places its tying to represent, and in my view it sometimes lowers the quality and standard by promoting people to jobs based on their ethnicity rather than on talent. Look at the 'fam' I dont believe for a moment that either Yaz or Ryans actors got their job purely on acting talent alone, they simply dont make the grade for Who, its mostly like watching two planks of wood competing for most wooden of the year award but they fitted perfectly Chibbers 'inclusive' new Who.}}

yep agree, if you compare them with Martha who was a really good actress, they look like total gormless planks. Martha was great because it was probably time to show modern urban Britain and a positive role model for mixed race girls. She had purpose and they tackled race issues but never smacked you over the head with it. It wasn't an issue, she was just a smart cookie and the race thing was not really important, it was her character, her relationship with the doctor and the plot which was interesting.

{{ Yup well written character first, what colour she is later. Plus the Doctor met her in London where statiscally he is almost as likely to run into a person of colour as a white person, so it works fine. Sheffield is not London however. I think the BBC forget the make-up of the rest of the UK is nowhere near the levels of diversity in London and doesn't look anything like it (so much so the guy who plays Ryan is a Londoner and is trying (badly often) to do a Sheffield accent as they couldnt find a genuine black actor from Sheffield for the role! )}}.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Yup well written character first, what colour she is later. Plus the Doctor met her in London where statiscally he is almost as likely to run into a person of colour as a white person, so it works fine. Sheffield is not London however. I think the BBC forget the make-up of the rest of the UK is nowhere near the levels of diversity in London and doesn't look anything like it (so much so the guy who plays Ryan is a Londoner and is trying (badly often) to do a Sheffield accent as they couldnt find a genuine black actor from Sheffield for the role! )}}.

Ironically Cardiff, where Who is largely filmed and based actually has a long history as a multicultural city (well, to a degree at least), it has been a major trading hub and port city for centuries, before the Windrush generation and mass immigration post WW2 it was one of only a few places in the UK (Liverpool, Glasgow, South Shields and London most obviously also spring to mind) where you were likely to encounter an established ethnic minority community*:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butetown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Bay

(Shirley Bassey is perhaps the most notable person born there)

Kinda surprised the series hasn't touched on that period so far, it's a largely unknown chapter in Welsh history and would be an interesting and relevant way to explore British ethnic minority history/identity without it feeling like a box being ticked, and maybe a interesting idea for a companion.

*Though on a personal level one of our family friends is in her 70's and of mixed race descent, her grandfather was a black man born in England in the late 19th century I believe.

Also worth noting that Peter Davison's (5th Doctor) father was mixed race and born in Guyana.

Pettytyrant101 wrote: its mostly like watching two planks of wood competing for most wooden of the year award but they fitted perfectly Chibbers 'inclusive' new Who.}}

Well, I haven't been watching the 13th Doctor but many people have compared her to Davison 5th Doctor (who also had three companions), maybe Chibnall wanted to dial up the nostalgia further and bring in a new Adric (i.e Ryan)? A new annoying badly acted male sidekick?