The Dragon Helm

Another archived thread (I assume I cannot reply to those threads, bumping them over here somehow):

It looks awesome [Alan Lee's version] but I was never sure what to make of this line in the helms description: "It had a visor (after the manner of those that the Dwarves used in their forges for the shielding of their eyes), and the face of one that wore it struck fear into the hearts of all beholders, but was itself guarded from dart and fire."

Lee's depiction doesn't seem to have a "visor." What do you think?

Some have wondered if the visor could be removed, but I'm guessing Alan Lee chose not to incorporate the visor because it would obscure Turin's face (although in any event it could be lifted up according to JRRT). I can't recall any images to date of the helm with the visor, but I haven't seen all the Tolkien art there is!

Another interesting thing is the wording used in The Children of Hurin, the new edition specifically, considering that Lee depicts the image of the head and body of the dragon. Compare what is noted in the Narn published in Unfinished Tales:

'(...) It had a visor (after the manner of those that the Dwarves used in their forges for the shielding of their eyes), and the face of one that wore it struck fear into the hearts of all beholders, but was itself guarded from dart and fire. Upon its crest was set in defiance a gilded image of the head of Glaurung the dragon; for it had been made soon after he first issued from the gates of Morgoth.'

I would have depicted the head of the worm, but again, the wording used in the new edition (which A. Lee illustrated obviously) leaves it more open.

I like his work, but my opinion, my feelings then,my opinion is not worth all that much , is that if one is going to tackle the art to someone's magnum opus they ought to be precise and exactly as the author wants. I am having right now to do the art work for something I am to hand in to the publishers, starting with clay. It is tedious, and then I will use that to do the water colors. And all because I have not the confidence the in house artists will be the least bit true to what I hold dear in the characters. He could have simply had the visor lifted up and resting on the helm if it did that sort of thing .

There is a new cover for Children of Hurin, which does have the helmet featuring a visor.

Do you mean this one? I've seen it in bookstores, I think, though I can't say the visor is quite like I imagined when I read the book. Maybe I'm misinterpreting or misremembering the text, but I imagined something more like the Sutton Hoo helmet.

In the Grey Annals (§232): 'Now the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves of Men, and it was the custom of the Enfeng to wear great masks (struck out: or vizors) in battle hideous to look upon, which stood them in great stead against the drakes.' Compare to the description already supplied: 'It had a visor (after the manner of those that the Dwarves used in their forges for the shielding of their eyes), and the face of one that wore it struck fear into the hearts of all beholders,...'

In commentary to the Grey Annals (§280) we find that Túrin 'thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye' (in both the published Silmarillion and The Children of Húrin Turin does not have the Helm at this point).

Anyway, I thought maybe (and perhaps like one of the battle-masks) the visor was a distorted image of an angry dwarf-face, for one possibility.

At last, proper conversation that keeps within the parameters of the thread title. Well done, you folk. Respectability at last!

I've always longed for respectability, Odo!

Your tie is quite respectable looking Porgy.

Ooh Petty, how nice you are. I've always you a respectable gentlehobbit, in a behind the bushes at the bottom of the Council Estate kind of way.

A gentlehobbit notices these sorts of things Porgy...and I notice them if I'm staring at your chest.

I'm a par-time Medievalist, and I have seen helms where the inner plate looked very much like a welder's mask, but rimming around the mask was the maw and head of a giant animal, giving the impression that the mouth was sort of devouring the mask itself.
The giant gaping jaws of lions were mostly used in medieval times, but it would not be hard to envision a horrible dragon's maw, open and displaying teeth and spit, a true horror to look at. (I do wish I could draw something for you, let me see if I can find an illustration.) Here we are:


And what about this one?


I find them quite grotesque, and perfect for annoying the **** out of your opponent.

I like them!  I wouldn't have thought they'd had the skill for the flowing metal work shown in the first mask.  To my woefully untrained eye it looks rather 17th century.

That would be quite discomforting coming at you with violent intent.

Do you know what it has its roots in?
It reminds me of tribal headdresses an the old European traditions of shamans in Bear and Wolf headdress.

Here's the link to the article, complete with more helms and all the dates. The lion is actually very early, 14th, and yes, the serpent is indeed 17th - right on, Halfwise!

Gawker Helms

Not right on! I got them backwards!  

Oh! Drat. Heh. I've come to the concluson that neither would be very good in open battle, they've both fall to pieces or get horribly dented, but then, I guess armor is made to be brutalized and fixed, 'specially if you want to look good in battle.

I think they'd all line up, shouting and waving their arms; then the moment the other army got too close they'd turn and run away wailing "Nooo! Don't dent my beautiful armor!"

This is why we Scots wore nothing at all.
If you want to terrify line up several thousand naked angry highlanders and then get them to charge screaming and yelling right at you  

That's why the Romans built Hadrian's wall, to keep you Heathen Savages out.

Wimpy Italians!  

And I should mention an obvious advantage to fighting naked as opposed to covered in armour- cost. Got to watch the sporran  

Don't suggest that to the MOD, if Cameron had his way we'd be fighting battles with rudely worded letters and waterbombs.

Good point.

But even naked Scotshobbits wouldnt charge without a claymore in one hand and a targ in the other.
No armour is one thing (it just gets in the way and slows you down) no weapons is madness!

You could just Talk in a very thick Glaswegian accent and confuse them-it seems to work on Tourists!

How you hold a claymore in one hand anyway? Aren't they massive five foot things?

But back to the Dragon Helm...can't remember, though COH rocks.

How you hold a claymore in one hand anyway? - Malick

Necessity, if you used both hands you wouldn't be able to drink your buckie, obviously  

The sword of Robert the Bruce ws pretty massive- it is a sort of Anduril version- its been remade using (supposedly) the original blade from Bruce's time (it definetly does date to the right time, but it actually being the one the Bruce used is another matter)but the hilt and the reforging was done in the 14th century.
I couldnt find a pic of it that showed it in context with a person to judge it size, but heres a pic of a bloke holding a replica-



William Wallace also had a famous sword of improbable dimensions- its on display in Edinburgh Castle-



One of the reasons Wallace was reputed to be such a large person was purely based on reports he rode into battle swinging his sword in one hand above his head, and then people saw the size of the sword.