Religous debates and questions [2]

Ah, I see from which direction you are approaching this from. I wouldn't say this guy is from the religious right; I think the Federalist published him because he happened to say something that *might* be construed as critical of atheism, and they didn't have the mental framework to comprehend the subtle tongue in cheek nature of his writing. I don't think he's falling into the simplified philosophical traps you lay out; the Federalist is another matter.

Turkey's gonna stop teaching evolution in high schools.

https://www.voanews.com/amp/turkey-stop-teaching-evolution-theory-high-schools/3913678.html

I can sort of understand denying human influence on climate change, but the science of evolution is so much clearer and inevitable. There's only a few sane places that seem to be left on this earth...

May be risky reviving this thread... but we will see where this goes...

Mormon owned university BYU is currently set to lose its police force. (article is surprisingly objective considering it is written by Deseret News, a Mormon-owned news service) This is due to their use of police resources to enforce the university's religion-centric Honor Code, and not sharing their records with the state of Utah in regards to its investigations. Basically they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have an official police force, but they don't want any of the oversight that comes with have a force.

Also, I wanted to throw my hat in the ring of halfwise's last post on this thread (even though it is pretty old). While evolution and its related elements (such as the large-scale evolution of the Big Bang Theory) should be taught in schools in-depth, I feel like creationist theory shouldn't be outright banned in schools or science classes even though I don't necessarily agree or believe in it. As there is little to no scientific evidence for creationism, it shouldn't be presented as anything more than an alternative theory (i.e. "some people believe....") , little class time should be dedicated to it. I'm just all for presenting multiple viewpoints is all.

No problem presenting creationism so long as it's bundled with the muslim variant, the Hindu view which is a whole different ball of wax, and I have no idea what the far east philosophies say about it but would love to know and think kids should be exposed to it with all else.  Toss in the multiple african and lesser asian creation stories.

Laid out that way, they can decide if all of these really are "alternate theories" when put against the evidence based scientific view.  Which by the way the mainly Christian scientific establishment was led to kicking and screaming because they were bound by their profession to follow the evidence.  And which keeps changing as more evidence comes in.

That's the thing, they would be presented with information, and ultimately decide for themselves what they believe.

However, as far as each of the specific creation stories go, would they need to go over each in detail? I was thinking more along the lines of a very brief "some people believe there are one or several divine beings responsible for creating the universe" as that encompasses the gist of most creation stories. If a teacher/professor wants to get into more detail then they should be required to cover a variety of stories. I just don't know that there would be enough time in a typical middle/high school science class to cover every creation story out there, and most of the time should be dedicated to true science anyway.

I think if you just present the generalized view rather than the panoply that's out there, most people will just see their own version in that generalized view and therefore will be more likely to see it an an equal alternative to the scientific approach. Laying all the others out will reinforce that the view they were brought up in is not so singular. I think it's worth the time. Won't work for everyone, but may wake a few up.

{{I think using creation stories as a spring board for discussion would be more useful. Talk about how Genesis speaks of the earth being surrounded by water and water below, talk about Aboriginal dream time, and earth eggs and monkey gods making it. And use those for asking questions in light of what we actually know about the earth now. Why did they believe those things, what were they trying to explain, how did their culture and location and wildlife and fauna of their region influence their views etc.
Also be handy to provide kids with a comprehensive list of all the gods a and goddesses we know of that have been worshiped around the globe across recorded history in order to give context to the how common and how many there have been, and the fact 99% of them out-lived their usefulness or their people or their culture. }}

I would just stick to Darwin and leave it at that.

That book would be bigger than War And Peace I heard there are millions of Gods just in India alone ! Mind you that would really be a fascinating piece if anyone has the cosmic patience to do it ! I don't really believe in a God, my ideas are different but, Id love to read how other peoples think & who they worship or revere.

{{Yup, it would need to be huge- but that is rather the point. It highlights how humans, at all times in our history, in all sorts of different communities, even in isolation from each other in geography or vast oceans of time, still felt the need to invent gods to explain away all the stuff that seems inexplicable about our absurd existence.

And such a book would highlight that it doesn't really matter what the god stands for, there is a god somewhere for every occasion, it doesn't matter what they look like, you've a massive range from unseeable right through to feathered flying serpent gods. It doesn't matter how they are worshipped, from simple prayers to chopping up your offspring, its all there somewhere. We've done it all.
And, unless you want to believe there is a nearly infinite variety of afterlife, its fair to say all those people who firmly believed in all those gods, and did all the right things by them, probably didn't get to go where they thought they were promised they would when they died.

And once this is established as self-evident truth.

Then ask what's different about the current bunch of gods being worshipped round the globe? The answer of course is nothing at all.

And in fact all a massive book with all the gods humans have conjured up proves is that we will come up with anything to feel a sense of security and belonging in a chaotic universe so vast we cant actually comprehend what's going on, even though we are in it! }}

Not sure how germane this might be to the conversation, but I find the older I get the less I believe in Gods and the more I despise them.

Can somebody squash this?

Post and poster squashed.

Orwell wrote:Not sure how germane this might be to the conversation, but I find the older I get the less I believe in Gods and the more I despise them.

You cant despise what you dont believe in!

But it is all a crock of shite anyway.

While I'm in the neighbourhood though, a colleague recommended watching the netflix documentary on flat earthers. Anyone else seen it? Quite interesting and a bit worrying.

I've long ago accepted that people can have absolutely crazy beliefs, but still be perfectly functional in every day life. So it's only worth arguing with them if entertaining.

{ Hey! Don't knock flat-earthers! They'll fall off! }}}

Amarië wrote:While I'm in the neighbourhood though, a colleague recommended watching the netflix documentary on flat earthers. Anyone else seen it? Quite interesting and a bit worrying.

That depends on what you think afterwards...

If it is the one called 'Beyond the Curve' then you should be ok.

Yeah, that's the one. Sorry I was unclear. I have seen it and it was a good documentary, made to inform rather than preach or ridicule. Worth a watch to learn a bit about what can make a person believe so deeply, despite doing research that tells them they are wrong.

This should be required reading: the magical world of the Arabian nights was something of a cultural reality until 1979; our present view of the Muslim world as religiously repressed is only a recent phenomena. This rings true based on the many Muslim foreign students I know.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/muslim-world-saudi-iraq-iran-egypt-lebanon/605431/

No point in even trying. What makes modern science frustrating is that there are no tabletop demonstrations left that can demonstrate most of it. When these guys said you can see the tops of distant mountains but not the bases because of the way light works you know there's no hope left.

Flat earthers...

The claim that their idea is the only thing that represents what they 'see' is a flat earth, however I am yet to see ANY model with the exception of the heliocentric model that explains all of it.

The problem is that they have started with a conclusion and are now trying to force everything to fit... and it just doesnt.