Watching LOTR for the first time in four years

It's almost like I banned myself from TORn, looking at my TORn profile the number of posts I made there gradually decreased the further into production/release The Hobbit films went (there's probably a total of less than 2-300 posts the last two years and I haven't posted there for months, whereas when I first joined I was active more or less continuously in my spare time...but I think most Tolkien forums have died a slow death since so I'm not a special case, TORn positively thrived even three years back, now it's like a ghost town...)

I originally joined TORn because I was interested in discussing the Hobbit films but gradually lost interest the more we found about the trilogy, funny that...felt kinda redundant to post on the No 1 Tolkien forum when I had no interest in the films and neither the time nor knowledge to discuss the books in the depth they deserved (yes I know I started a ludicrously detailed read-though here of The Hobbit Book months back, but I gave up after a chapter...maybe one day I'll start it up again...) I have nothing against any of the staff or people who post there (very nice people for the most part, many of whom put my Tolkien knowledge to shame) I just felt more and more disinterested in the film franchise and always found the TORn forum to be a bit too formal and overwhelming for my random musings/nonsense to be of any contribution.

Very glad I found this place and all you wonderful/slightly bonkers people instead, at least here going off topic isn't frowned upon (probably celebrated in fact) and the variation of non-Tolkien discussions make it all the more special/interesting when we actually do go back on topic discussing the supposed main topic of this forum...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:how Petty managed to last longer than she did I'll never understand- Halfy

{{I didn't if you recall- I was banned first- but I was so crabbit about it to their mods they eventually reinstated me }}}

You weren't trying hard enough

azriel wrote:I think became the running joke  see how many times Figgy could be banned from there Good on her  

I remember reading/partaking in a delightfully crabbit conversation about The Hobbit Films with one of Figg's TORn accounts on a thread over at TORn a couple years back, and only realized it was her when she mentioned on a thread here she was banned from TORn again I think that account only lasted a few days

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ I was still in my 30's when I joined here I cant even remember my 30's!    }}

Whereas I still had a full head of hair and youthful optimism when I joined here

Eldorion wrote:

malickfan wrote:I didn't realize the Old Forum dated back that far, how many of you guys were active posters on the old forum?

Of people who were still posting here when you joined, chris63, Tinuviel, myself, and Odo joined in 2009. Petty, halfwise, Ally, and Ringdrotten joined in 2010. Kafria joined in 2011 just a few weeks before Dark Planet Day (11 February 2011), and her daughter Squach joined us in the immediate aftermath while we were still on the stopgap forum (comments section, actually) on my personal blog, where we set up camp for a couple days before I signed us up with Forumotion. Halfwise and chris were lost in the woods at the time though, and didn't find their way to the new forum until later. Amarië, Leelee, and Elthir came over here from Planet Tolkien during the easing of relations in summer 2011, before Petty and Odo were banned on PT.

(it's weird, been posting here for nearly 4 years but I still sometimes feel like a newbie as I stay clear of most of the creative/history side of the forum still don't know how that Grey Horses thing started...)

To the best of my memory it started as a Lore argument between Dave and Elthir over whether horses with coats that appear to be white are properly classified as white horses or a type of grey horse. I'm fuzzy on the exact details though, and don't want to inadvertently set off any behorsings.

halfwise wrote:But Eldo, Petty, and old Odo...those are the triumvirite.

Oh you. {{{GB played an indispensable role on the Old Forum too though.}}}

Interesting, thanks for filling me in on some of the forum history

I don't think I had even read The Hobbit back then (though I had read/seen LOTR several times at that point) and probably wasn't even aware of the online Tolkien forums...

when we actually do go back on topic discussing the supposed main topic of this forum...- Malick

{{Thing is we had some great huge diverse debates on all things Tolkien and all things Tolkien film related back in the day at the start- after a while e had exhausted all the main topics and everyone knew everyone elses position and no one was for budging cause were a stubborn bunch of buggers.
So we dont tend to have those big debates any more as there is nothing new to add to them since then. But if anyone does have anew angle or topic we are always ready to dive back into Tolkien debate mode. It is afterall what unites us all in the first place.}}}

awright, I'll bite. Did Tolkien intend his stories to occur before or after the last ice age?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:when we actually do go back on topic discussing the supposed main topic of this forum...- Malick

{{Thing is we had some great huge diverse debates on all things Tolkien and all things Tolkien film related back in the day at the start- after a while e had exhausted all the main topics and everyone knew everyone elses position and no one was for budging cause were a stubborn bunch of buggers.
So we dont tend to have those big debates any more as there is nothing new to add to them since then. But if anyone does have anew angle or topic we are always ready to dive back into Tolkien debate mode. It is afterall what unites us all in the first place.}}}

That's a fair point, after a while you'd naturally cover most areas of debate even with books as detailed as Tolkien's (though the fact that new works of scholarship are still being published today stands as a great testament to his genius as an author).

I'd still be up for a LOTR readthrough one day...

halfwise wrote:awright, I'll bite.  Did Tolkien intend his stories to occur before or after the last ice age?

Well I'm no expert on the chronology of the ice ages, but IIRC in response to a fan, he said he liked to think we are currently in the 5th or 6th Age though also stating the ages quickened after Aragorn's passing (it's in one of the published Letters, assuming the ages 2nd-4th Ages were roughly the same length 3,000 years (give or take) that would seemingly place the 3rd age several thousand years after the last ice age (Tolkien was a devout catholic but I don't believe he took the 2,000 years since Genesis literally), a related question would be, are there any ice ages mentioned in the books? somewhere in the HOME maybe?

Another (kinda random) question, what, if anything should we read into the near absence of religious references in the LOTR considering his background?, and do those religious references that are included point towards an organised religion in middle earth, or a more informal system based upon tradition/myth?


Frodo refers to the stars of Varda (and clearly knows at least a little about Elvish creation myths and religious beliefs) I think Gimli references Aulë at one point and Faramir and the Rangers take a pre-dinner toast to drowned Numenor and the undying lands beyond but those are the only major religious references by characters I can recall...

Tolkien explained the absence of religion explicitly, saying he removed all references in his final draft.  Letter 142:

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."

And there is the famous Letter 131 :

"Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion. For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. "

(It continues with the much-quoted "my crest has fallen" passage.)

He strongly criticized the Narnia stories for their explicit Christianity, which pulled the readers out of the book and back into the modern age.  This (and the Screwtape Letters) was the primary reason for the break in friendship between him and C.S. Lewis.

But back the ice ages: Tolkien's chronology would put the first age during the last ice age.  If it was all placed before the last ice age, it would account for the changes in geographic detail, and provide a historical 'reset' between his ages and our "modern" ages.  And so I prefer to think of the middle earth period as happening in the previous interglacial, 115-130 thousand years ago.  yes, it's pleistocene.  But it's safely removed. Most of the megafauna like sabre-toothed tigers had become extinct by the end of the pleistocene, as well as nearly all neanderthals. It was a period where the old forms could still be remembered, which I think would have a magical aspect to it.

{{I'd place the events nearer than Halfy- during the last Ice Age but during one of the periods of slight warming which occurred.
There are periods where the south of England is free of Ice which would allow the Shire to be temperate and the northern region and the fact its still an ice age there would account for the region of Grindng Ice. So about 30,000-10,000 years ago. Which is the time period we attribute to myth and legends- like Atlantis existing (which obviously is just the remnant memory of the fall of Numenor!.}}}

Sorry for not replying, guys - I'm more absent than I'd like these days.

halfwise wrote:How long will you be in NZ? Quite jealous.

19 or 20 days, travel days not included. Can't wait

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ I have been trying to find a suitable reply Azriel- but I'm lost for words!!!
And worse Ringo has my purist edits (which even I dont have any more ) so he has the choice to watch PJ's or not and choose Pj's That's not right in the head!! }}}

Sorry about that, petty, just had to

Eldorion wrote:Congrats on your upcoming NZ trip, Ringo! Be sure to bring back lots of pictures to post here. I'd love to be able to do that someday, though there are other potential foreign trips that are probably ranked higher.

Thanks! I'll bring my camera, luckily I'm travelling with a friend who's better than me at remembering to actually use it. I guess I'll be handing it over to her before we leave. Then I'll have to remember to post them! Have a few pics from Weymouth I was meaning to post, beautiful place.

malickfan wrote:I keep meaning to rewatch LOTR but there's always something else to watch/read/listen to.

Here's a question for you, how long since you've watched the Ralph Bakshi version?

Years ago, can barely remember it


Rewatched RotK tonight, loved it. Once again I'm reminded of why I never watch these films with anyone else - I tear up like a little girl when I watch them

Post the pics from Weymouth NOW and we may forgive you for going to New Zealand.

David H wrote: I prefer to think of it as an erudite discussion.

Well gen'rally to me
(with which you might agree),

some of it was Eru
while other parts were dite.

In any case, one can't erase
the very fact we both have faced when posting day and night:

If you're a horsey grey,
it might not mean you're white!

That was pretty good!

Rewatching ROTK. The usual stuff still makes me roll my eyes, but I'm rediscovering what a powerful presence the music has in the film. I'm trying to decide if PJ's treatment of Denethor is a bigger sin than any of the dumb shit in the Hobbit movies, and the at the moment I'm leaning towards "yes."

To me PJ Denethor was THE sin to end all sins in RotK.

Not sure if it compares to the trainwreck of the Hobbit, but to me Denethor was the most fascinating character in the books, and PJ turned him into cheez whiz.

But wow, Bernard Hill and Sean Astin, best performances of the entire trilogy IMO.

I would have to agree!

(I still like Hugo Weaving more though. )

I agree with Bernard Hill's performance (though I wish he had fought against the stupid "draw swords" line in the battle of Helm's Deep); I think we take Ian McKellan's splendid performance too much for granted; and of course Andy Serkin was incredible and deserved an oscar. Looking past John Noble's performance I think I was most disappointed in Christopher Lee. Yes, his performance was on point, but there were no subtleties. It was a faultless caricature.

Okay, the way he gazed lovingly on the newly spawned Orc was above and beyond.

halfwise wrote: I think we take Ian McKellan's splendid performance too much for granted; and of course Andy Serkin was incredible and deserved an oscar.

I was thinking about this after I made my comment, completely passed over Ian McKellen. The way he describes entering the Undying Lands to Pippin still evokes an emotional response from me. I'm glad they put that in the movie, it's such a beautiful description.

Andy Serkis should get a lifetime achievement award or something. His work in LOTR, TH, King Kong, Planet of the Apes is unmatched.

Tell you who I like as well, Karl Urban, I have never seen an actor do such a desperate cry of despair as when he found Eowyn.

I just like Karl Urban !