Doctor Who [11]

Forest Shepherd wrote:Personally I couldn't see an older Churchill being sexualized. It would probably just come across as comedy.

Oh really?

just think. that's the greatest Englishman who ever lived.

Wow that suit doesn't really leave anything to the imagination.

I stand corrected Eldo!

It is kinda comedic though.

Like a sexy comedian telling jokes... sexily.

I don't see how this is helping me understand Figg's and Amaries misplaced complaints?! I'm even more confused now!


Dave- where are you in your Who viewing? (you seem to be not watching them in the recommend order!!! )- I think from what you've said you've seen series 8 (did that include Last Xmas?) and the 50th stuff (but did that include watching prequels stuff- Like Nightof the Doctor?). Have you watched the end of 11's run yet? I am assuming you haven't delved back into classic yet.

Really enjoyed Murray Gold's work this series, more than in the last two. Especially liked the ending piece in last weeks episode, so here it is, but it is ripped from the episode with effects tracks off so doesn't sound quite as good as it will when the official soundtrack for the series comes out-

Didn't like Queenie in the 50th at all. Came across as anything other than Queen. Slightly spoilt bimbo from the pub, yes. Queen, no.

She did party a bit in her younger days, and she spend it in the company of many a person not considered respectable by society (or in fact legal)- astrologers and alchemists and the like. Not to mention characters like John Dee.

she didn't act like a bimbo from a tavern though did she. Most of the time she was being imprisoned in the Tower on treason charges, or being told about her parents er separation..well her head getting separated anyway.. Elizabeth was probably an intense and scared young lady rather than a bouncy princess in search of sausage. Elizabeth was probably a small skinny and pale thing, not some overfed buxom over enthusiastic country wench.

Elizabeth was probably an intense and scared young lady- Figg

History does not record scared as a characteristic- but then you have Royal propaganda to take into account too.
But she was certainly daring, both personally and politically.
The Doctor is exactly the sort of person she would have been interested in, intellectually at least- she had a great deal of book knowledge, and was interested in the latest ideas, even, or especially, the heretical and forbidden ones- hence her hanging about folk like John Dee (who we also have to thank for America- as it was Dee who persuaded her to colonise North America as a strategy against the Spanish colonisation of South America).

Also you have to take into account the brief Moffat was working to- he had a preset story line here cooked up by RTD and carried on by himself.
RTD had already stated that the Doctor got married to Elizabeth the 1st.
Having chosen Elizabeth as the event to hinge putting 10 and 11 together (as it is a unsolved mystery that has been referenced across both their eras) he has to show how this comes about- and he has to do so quickly.
In typical Moffat style he turns the obvious choice on its head- show them romantically involved and the Doctor proposing- but make the whole thing hinge on the fact the Doctor has got it wrong again and she infact not a Zygon at all but the real Queen andnow he has just asked her to marry him, and she has said yes.

He uses it for humour (and here I feel is part of the objection, he uses her for humour) but this is completely in tone with everything we have seen about or heard about Elizabeth.
Since the first time it arises at the end of the Shakespeare Code, its used for humour. When 10 reveal she married her, its in a humorous line, when the Dream Lord mocks 11 its with comedy, same with Liz 10.
Its been mined as comedic tale since its inception. So quite rightly when we see how the Doctor came to marry her by mistake, its played for laughs.

Now liking it or not is down to taste, but I think the process the reasoning is fairly clear. And at no point do I see a stage where Moffat is thinking, lets make a sexist women hating version of her.

The reason Elizabeth was scared of marriage and husbands in general, was the fact as soon as she married any suitable prince he would have the whip hand, she would lose most of her power as men ruled and women were breeders. Even Queen Victoria had the same problem to a certain extent hundreds of years later. Albert didn't like being just a consort, it hurt his dignity, Elizabeth remembered what had happened to an anointed queen, her mother, being a queen wouldn't save you from a husband who wanted to get rid. that's probably why she never married, it was that fear at the back of her mind. To turn her into a comedy wench isn't a case of 'taste', its a gross misrepresentation, and harms young girls who would otherwise have a strong role model. Why stop there? why not Joan of Arc running about snogging Frenchmen, or Marie Curie, or Emily Pankhurst do you want them to fall in love with the Doctor and want to marry him too? lesbian fantasies with Clara and all three Bronte sisters?

You've got a ten minute window in the script- heres the brief for it- show the circumstances in which the Doctor proposes and she accepts. Set up them getting married. Continue the tongue in cheek vein that the entire Doctor/Elizabeth thing has been set up as from the start. End the scene in a glade.

How do you do it without violating your above notion that she would not get married so as not to lose power?
Its impossible- RTD has already got you in the straitjacket that they have to get married.

At heart that episode was rather beautiful.

Spoiler:

Mrs Figg wrote:lesbian fantasies with Clara and all three Bronte sisters?

I'm sure you were merely being rhetorical, but I've got a feeling this image will stay with me for a very long time......

Im missing something arent I ? Im sure IL get it spelt out to me but, tonights episode didnt lace my boots ? I think I liked it ? maybe Im craving a bit of fear, a bit of the willies, a quick leap behind the settee ?

Well, there is only so many times the same person can surprise you.

Im missing something arent I ? -Azriel

Spoiler:

'there is only so many times the same person can surprise you. '- Blue

Spoiler:

I mean Moffat. You know, the guy who is involved with writing 5 out of 8 episodes this series, (6 counting the prequel) and, knowing Moffat, has probably heavily rewritten the other three. The guy who has either cherry picked or outlined every stories that have been written for this season. Yeah.. this show isn't in his image at all..

well that was boring. liked the firey pussy though. well I would wouldn't I?

You know, the guy who is involved with writing 5 out of 8 episodes this series, (6 counting the prequel) and, knowing Moffat, has probably heavily rewritten the other three. - Blue

Well you know the anti-Moffat brigade is reaching when they count a ten minute prequel as an episode in a desperate attempt to try to make him sound like a control freak!
As to 'knowing Moffat' you clearly know next to nothing about him if you accuse him of heavily rewriting the other three- RTD was the one famous for heavy rewrites- Moffat is the one famous for not rewriting others work.
Oh and there also 12 episodes not 8.
And in fact Moffat has only written 4 of those not 6 and he has co-written 2.
But hey facts, knowledge, information- not the strong points of the 'we hate Moffat' placard wearer.

If you dont like the episode fair enough- but the bulk of the blame for that goes to the writer if so, not the showrunner who never wrote the episode.
Personally I felt she wrote a very strong character piece.

Its funny how the anti-Moffat brigade cherry-pick- when everyone loved Maithson debut episodes last series it was all done to Maithson no mention of Moffat, as soon as someone doesn't like an episode then it doesnt matter who wrote it- its all Moffats fault.

I stopped reading at "anti-Moffat brigade". When people start labeling people with opposing opinions like that, it normally means they are loosing the argument on merit and need to label people holding an opposite opinion in some way to discredit their opinion by others means.  

And whether that is the case or not, it's the impression it makes on me.

David H wrote:

Mrs Figg wrote:lesbian fantasies with Clara and all three Bronte sisters?

I'm sure you were merely being rhetorical, but I've got a feeling this image will stay with me for a very long time......

Well who can resist that 'come hither' look in their eyes?