Re: Doctor Who [11]

by halfwise Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:51 am

There's something known as "Bradbury's defence" for situations like this. Ray Bradbury was at a science fiction conference when...

One dreadful boy ran up to me and said:
"That book of yours, The Martian Chronicles?"
"Yes," I said.
"On page 92, where you have the moons of Mars rising in the east?"
"Yeah," I said.
"Nah," he said.
So I hit him.

by David H Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:15 am

... this from the hobbit who felt that Sherlock's "Hounds of the Baskerville" episode was ruined by the optical microscopes they used for DNA analysis. Nod

by halfwise Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:28 pm

I'd be circumspect about complaining to Mark Gatiss in person...

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:37 pm

Honestly, can't they even afford a 2nd year physics student to fill the "science consultant" chair and make up cool scientific-sounding bull shit- David

Now if you'd said this a week ago Id probably be inclined to agree, however in that time I happened to catch an episode of ST:TNG, which I was at the time a huge fan of (despite all the rubbish episodes when it was good it was very good) and I found I was increasingly annoyed with the techno-babble, it was like the whole thing would continually grind to a halt for a few minutes whilst someone said something that sounded impressive, but was really just 'if we connect the blah-blah to the blah-blah it will form a blah-blah field we can channel through the blah-blah and achieve blah-blah.'

If it does come down to a 'what do we cut for time purposes?' question then I am not so sure these days that I'd be in favour of cutting any of the character stuff in that episode just for some impressive sounding, but ultimately narratively empty, blah-blah explanation.

'Damn you Petty! Why do you keep sucking me in to debates like this!'

Its the draw of the crabbit Twisted Evil

by David H Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:19 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I happened to catch an episode of ST:TNG, which I was at the time a huge fan of (despite all the rubbish episodes when it was good it was very good) and I found I was increasingly annoyed with the techno-babble

So then there's hope that in 25 years you may be more open to criticism of Doctor Who! cheers

Yes, I'd agree that good science is better than bad techno-babble if you can insert it in a way the helps the pacing of the story, and certainly neither the science or the technobabble should detract from the pacing more than necessary. But as an editor yourself, don't you think that continuity is at least as important as pacing?

My point is that even a few seconds of techno-babble is better than no explanation at all, if it helps maintain continuity. I think you'd find that, as silly as the ST techno-babble can be, if you did a technobabble-free edit of ST it would be even harder to follow the narrative because of all the discontinuities. That's why it's there in the first place.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:59 pm

Some choice and/or interesting quotes from Jamie Matheison about his time writing his first two Who episodes for series 8-

Mummy-

'I am writing for the British institution, children's nightmare factory and infinite narrative sand-pit that is Doctor Who. Which is an honour. And a joy. And a huge pressure. And very, very cool.'

'So... they quite liked the first script I delivered and asked me if I'd like to write another. They quite liked that one too. Then they decided to put them next to each other in the schedule as episodes 8 and 9.
No pressure.
Obviously I can't say any more than that, I have checked and I am allowed to say YIPPEEE. Great honour times two.'

'So the way it worked was this: Steven Moffat gave me the title: 'Mummy On The Orient Express' and the idea that this episode would be set in space. I went away and had a think about it.'

Flatline-

'It was one of those ideas that I was surprised Who hadn't done before. Flat monsters that steal dimension. But no. It was just sitting there, waiting for me.'

'It's going to be have to be a Doctor light episode. But so was Blink. Which some people seemed to like.' I'm paraphrasing from memory, but that was the gist of the direction from Steven. The implication being, this doesn't have to be a limitation. If you're smart, you could make it a strength.'

' The Doctor needed to be in the same location for most of the episode. This would give Peter less shooting days and free up the schedule. Trapping him in the Tardis was the obvious choice. But how to make it seem a logical organic part of the story?
The five foot version of the Tardis was already in the script. 'Couldn't we just keep that process going? Shrink it right down, make the doors too small for him to get out?' There and then in the meeting I pitched the idea.'

' The next part of the puzzle came from Steven. I'm sure I would have figured it out given time, but he's just so damn quick. 'I'll go you one better.' he said. 'Clara carries the Tardis around in her bag for the whole episode.'
My smile froze. Of course she does Steven. And every time anyone compliments me on the idea I will have to hold my tongue and grind my teeth knowing you came up with the cherry on the cake. Damn your Bafta winning eyes.'

'An idea I came up with while writing was the Doctor dragging the Tardis along like the Addams Family Thing, which wasn't in any outlines or discussions and was a nice surprise for everyone when I handed in the script.'

'I've had an absolute ball writing these scripts. If you enjoy watching them half as much as I did writing them, then I've plainly done something wrong. And at every step of the way I've had the support of a wonderful team of smart people pointing out when I'm not. Smart, that is. Which is quite handy, because it turns out that's fairly often.
And astride it all like the Who colossus that he is, Mr Steven Moffat, whose notes have fixed so many glaring errors and added so many cool aspects to the episodes that someone should really put him in charge of the show or something. No seriously. He's that good.'

by Mrs Figg Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:29 pm

I have gone off Matheison. srsy. ''Colossus'' Rolling Eyes

by Mrs Figg Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:27 pm

Spoiler:

by David H Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:59 pm

Thanks for sharing that Petty, though I'm glad I didn't read any of it before I watched the episodes.
It didn't even occur to me that Flatline was a Who-Light episode while I was watching it. I really enjoyed Blink too. Maybe when well written less is more when it comes to the Doctor.

by Semiramis Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:59 am

I absolutely loved the two-part episode "Under the lake" and "Before the Flood"! cheers

Spoiler:

by Mrs Figg Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:24 pm

Semiramis wrote:I absolutely loved the two-part episode "Under the lake" and "Before the Flood"!
Spoiler:

I agree, these latest two episodes are a great improvement. Very Happy

They seem to be going back to a more old fashioned but more satisfying storytelling mode.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:43 pm

It didn't even occur to me that Flatline was a Who-Light episode while I was watching it.- David

There is usually a Doctor lite and a Companion lite episode in every series to give the leads a break.
Some are more obvious than others- Midnight (companion lite) and Blink (Doctor lite) are quite obvious, Donna only appears in the opening and final scene of Midnight, and in Blink the Doctor only appears on a video tape and two scenes in two different streets in the 1960's and one contemporary).
Flatline is one of the more cleverly disguised Doctor lites- bit like The Girl Who Waited which is another well disguised Doctor Lite episode, and like Flatline it comes up with a reason to keep the Doctor trapped in the TARDIS (the disease the Two Stream Facility was built to house the patients of, only affects two hearted species).

'

Spoiler:

'- Semiramis

Spoiler:

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:51 pm

What (if anything) has King Arthur got to do with this series arc? That's what I am wondering.

Spoiler:

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:32 pm

by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:05 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:It didn't even occur to me that Flatline was a Who-Light episode while I was watching it.- David

There is usually a Doctor lite and a Companion lite episode in every series to give the leads a break.
Some are more obvious than others- Midnight (companion lite) and Blink (Doctor lite) are quite obvious, Donna only appears in the opening and final scene of Midnight, and in Blink the Doctor only appears on a video tape and two scenes in two different streets in the 1960's and one contemporary).
Flatline is one of the more cleverly disguised Doctor lites- bit like The Girl Who Waited which is another well disguised Doctor Lite episode, and like Flatline it comes up with a reason to keep the Doctor trapped in the TARDIS (the disease the Two Stream Facility was built to house the patients of, only affects two hearted species).

'
Spoiler:
'- Semiramis

Spoiler:

Its fair because its his opinion. like it or not you cant say its not fair.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:08 pm

Opinion doesn't come into it here- this is a matter of simple fact- the laws of time are central to many Moffat story lines and season arcs. Its not an opinion. Its what happened in those series.

by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:09 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Opinion doesn't come into it here- this is a matter of simple fact- the laws of time are central to many Moffat story lines and season arcs. Its not an opinion. Its what happened in those series.

I am afraid opinion does come into it. You cant disallow someone elses opinion just because you don't like it.

by **Amarië** Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:15 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Opinion doesn't come into it here- this is a matter of simple fact- the laws of time are central to many Moffat story lines and season arcs. Its not an opinion. Its what happened in those series.

I am afraid opinion does come into it. You cant disallow someone elses opinion just because you don't like it.

Amen!

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:17 pm

'I am afraid opinion does come into it. You cant disallow someone elses opinion just because you don't like it. '- Figg

It is not a matter of liking it or not liking it, that has absolutely nothing to do with it- I might prefer it if apples float, but they don't they fall to the ground- my opinion doesn't come into it facts are facts.
Series 6 and 7 are full of episodes and stories relating directly and indirectly to the laws of Time. 11's actions are clearly stated in many cases to be because of the rules and laws of Time.
These are not opinions, or matters to like or dislike, my opinion doesn't count either- its not a matter of opinion its just what happened in those series.

Liking or disliking the stories themselves is a matter of opinion- that they have a lot of stuff about the laws of time in them is not.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:42 pm

series 5- The Time of Angels- the Doctors relationship with Rivers and hers with him and Amy's is all about preserving the rules of time- spoilers!- the diary River has is so they dont screw up time any more than it already is. This continues throughout series 5-present day.
Pandorica Opens/Big Bang- all about the series arc- a crack in the fabric of space and time- comes in and out of the stories throughout series 6-7 and often related to rules about Time- such as on Trenzalore.
Series 6- the entire story arc is all about the laws of Time- they define the Doctors actions- why he cant just go get baby River back ect- other episode explore the same ideas thematically- such as the Girl Who Waited. Other like the Wedding of River Song take the laws of Time directly on as a plot device. The entire plot centring on making a still point into a fixed point in Time and the causality loop Kovarian is caught in (causing what she set out to stop) are all about the laws of Time.
Series7- the Pond exit story line is all about the laws of Time and the inability to escape fate once its happened. The Doctors obsession with finding out about Clara is because she seems to break the laws of Time. Hence calling her his 'Impossible Girl'

None of this is a matter of opinion or taste- its just a list of where the laws of Time are part of the narrative in series 5-7.

Can you Figg or you Amarie really defend the notion that series 5-7 don't address or are about the Laws of Time?

by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:55 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:'I am afraid opinion does come into it. You cant disallow someone elses opinion just because you don't like it. '- Figg

It is not a matter of liking it or not liking it, that has absolutely nothing to do with it- I might prefer it if apples float, but they don't they fall to the ground- my opinion doesn't come into it facts are facts.
Series 6 and 7 are full of episodes and stories relating directly and indirectly to the laws of Time. 11's actions are clearly stated in many cases to be because of the rules and laws of Time.
These are not opinions, or matters to like or dislike, my opinion doesn't count either- its not a matter of opinion its just what happened in those series.

Liking or disliking the stories themselves is a matter of opinion- that they have a lot of stuff about the laws of time in them is not.

this is your opinion. somebody else may disagree and say the opposite. they may think that you are wrong. there are no facts.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:04 pm

There are facts- I've given you a list of episode and story lines which are explicitly about the laws of time- I can go find episode quotes where the characters talk about the laws of Time to further prove the case if need be.
These are facts not opinions. Not mine nor anyone elses- they are just what happens in the episodes- undeniably and provably.

by **Amarië** Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:12 pm

"Can you Figg or you Amarie really defend the notion that series 5-7 don't address or are about the Laws of Time?"

Yawn. Nah, that would involve caring and wanting to remember anything at all that involves Amy. I'm trying to ignore everyrhing about the impossible girl plot too. Might get around to watching the new episodes at some time. We're enjoying Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. now, so no rush.

Oh, I saw "Anomaly" with Mickey... er... *googles* Noel Clarke. He did good! Enjoyable movie.

by **Amarië** Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:24 pm

And it is still your opinion that your list proves your point and is fact, rather than being your interpretation, opinion and conclusion of what happened.

All Who writers create, bend and break their Time rules as they please.

by Semiramis Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:38 pm

Did I ever say that the last few years' episodes or seasons didn't address the laws of time?
As you so infallibly managed to prove by these many examples they did and I'm totally with you on this. I was just trying to say that I didn't see Doctor Who the last few years the way I saw it during the RTD era until now again.
For example when 11 just popped back in time in "Big Bang II" to fake his own death when it had always been clear so far that he can't go back in his own timeline. I just couldn't take most of his looks at the laws of time serious any more. It's those tiny actions that made the stories ever more unbelievable. And it took the air out of the feeling that something really dangerous could happen to the Doctor because, yeah, no problem, he can go back in time (nearly) anytime he wants.
And it's taken me till now to shake off that feeling.

And as for the story arc (that's the word I was looking for, thank you Wink

):
I'm alright with when it's done subtly like in season 3 - with the "Vote Saxon" posters all over the place - but not like in season 5 when I can practically reenact the way Matt Smith says "Two parts of space and time that should never have touched, pressed together" because it was repeated at EVERY opportunity Moffat got to remind us that this will be important later on.

I think this whole conversation is waaaaay too serious, by the way. Just sayin... Wink