Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[David H]

{{{{{{ I had always been under the impression that a national health care of some sort had been a Democratic goal since the Kennedy's. }}}

Nothing so neat as that. Franklin D Roosevelt (Dem) gave us Social Security in the 1930's, Eisenhower (Republican) formed the the Cabinet Dept. of Health Education and Welfare in the 50's which laid the groundwork for Medicare. Lyndon Johnson (Dem) funded Medicare in the 60's. By the 70's the pharmaceutical companies started seeing public healthcare as the threat to their profits. By the 80's they were deregulated under Reagan, began a number of mergers to become the Big Pharma of today, and became an ever-bigger lobbying influence on both parties, at the same time that the influence of the Labor lobby was diminishing. So it's really never been a clear-cut party-line thing.

[Mrs Figg]

Figgy - yes you do. The problem inow the West is generally Muslim extremism because we are involved in their politics directly... we have started or been involved in countless wars with them in the last 15 years.

In Turkey you have the kurdish (PKK etc) who bomb turkey because that is who they are involved with. I am sure they would like to have a go at Russia too if they could muster up the logistics.

In the East you have Uighers  (admittedly muslims but of a different sort).

In South America you have the various gangs that target things more domestically or get in to civil wars like in Colombia.

So yes, it does happen and yes, it is considered comparable because in all cases innocent people get caught in the way regardless of whether it is domestic or international terrorism.

These groups are not interested in the downfall of the West, they don't bomb foreigners, they bomb the Turkish state, in the case of the PKK, after they were murdered in vast numbers. I know innocent people get caught up as collateral damage but these groups are not fanatical death cults out to destroy Europe. The PKK are like the Basque separatists, or the IRA or the Mafia. They use violence they have an ideology, but they don't want world domination, so IS is more on a par with the Nazis. Its all murder, but IS has gone way beyond political struggle using violence. these idiots want to destroy a whole culture.

[azriel]

I think they DO want domination & all of the civilized world to be subservient to them & only them. I think they wish to move freely around the world with us all bowing & scraping & waving palm leaves. They want to hear "Allahu Akbar" sung at every dusk & dawn from everyone & from everywhere. Would then would they be happy ?

[David H]

As long as we're talking about militant fanaticism, these words have always scared the **** out of me.

And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon England's mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In England's green & pleasant Land



Do people still sing this?

[azriel]

My grandad always did, that & "Abide with Me ". Hearing those hymns reminds me of grandad & then I realise how much I miss him

[David H]

Here's the American equivalent. It's just as scary a mix of swords and religious zeal:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps,
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps:
His day is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal";
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,
Since God is marching on.

(Chorus)

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! Be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

(Chorus)

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me.
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free*,[14]
While God is marching on.

[azriel]

Sounds more like a rallying call for trouble....

[David H]

The French are a little better I guess, in that the blood-lust doesn't claim to be a divine cause.

Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us tyranny's
Bloody banner is raised, (repeat)
Do you hear, in the countryside,
The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
They're coming right into your arms
To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Soak our fields!

What does this horde of slaves,
Of traitors and conspiratorial kings want?
For whom are these vile chains,
These long-prepared irons? (repeat)
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What fury it must arouse!
It is us they dare plan
To return to the old slavery!

To arms, citizens...

What! Foreign cohorts
Would make the law in our homes!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Great God! By chained hands
Our brows would yield under the yoke
Vile despots would have themselves
The masters of our destinies!
To arms, citizens...

Tremble, tyrants and you traitors
The shame of all parties,
Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Will finally receive their reward! (repeat)
Everyone is a soldier to combat you
If they fall, our young heroes,
The earth will produce new ones,
Ready to fight against you!

To arms, citizens...

Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Bear or hold back your blows!
Spare those sorry victims,
Who arm against us with regret.(repeat)
But not these bloodthirsty despots,
These accomplices of Bouillé,
All these tigers who, mercilessly,
Rip their mother's breast!
 
To arms, citizens...
Sacred love of the Fatherland,
Lead, support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished Liberty,
Fight with thy defenders! (repeat)
Under our flags, may victory
Hurry to thy manly accents,
May thy expiring enemies,
See thy triumph and our glory!
 
'To arms, citizens...

[Lancebloke]

Figgy - they want to achieve their goals by whatever means they have available. The IRA wanted the rest of 'their' land back and bombed innocent civilians. The drug Lords of Mexico want control of their criminal enterprise and will do what they need to do including crimes akin to what IS are doing.

The end goal is really irrelevant, the way they go about it is what matters and it often involves terror and mass civilian deaths or suffering.

[bungobaggins]

Here's the American equivalent. It's just as scary a mix of swords and religious zeal:

I like the Battle Hymn of the Republic. I can understand the religious zeal seeing the lyrics were written in 1861 when the country was literally falling apart, and the tune was taken from a song about the abolitionist John Brown.

"As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free"

I don't believe the spiritual angle, but this is powerful stuff IMO.

[David H]

Speaking of terror and mass civilian deaths, Lance, I see that the Hague has just convicted Radovan Karadzic of genocide for the massacre of Muslims in Bosnia in the 90's. If only we could turn the clock back to before that time, we probably would never have had Al-Quaeda or ISIS in the first place.

[David H]

"As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free"

I don't believe the spiritual angle, but this is powerful stuff IMO.

It IS powerful stuff Bungo.  About 360,000 Union soldiers died singing that catchy tune during the Civil War (just looked that up). It's the kind of rhetoric that makes hundreds of thousands of young men sacrifice their lives for the ideal of Freedom.  For me, it's helpful to recognize that Islamic State fighters and suicide bombers are just singing the same kinds of songs our fathers and grandfathers did.

{{BTW when I was in elementary school we all were more familiar with the Battlehymn lyrics: "Mine eyes have seen the glory or the burning of the school. We have tortured every teacher, we have broken every rule. We are marching down the hall to hang the principal. Our truth is marching on!" I'm not sure where that came from or if it's still around among 8 year olds. It seemed hilarious then, but not so funny now... }}

[bungobaggins]

For me, it's helpful to recognize that Islamic State fighters and suicide bombers are just singing the same kinds of songs our fathers and grandfathers did.

What those idiots are doing now shouldn't even be remotely compared to what American soldiers have fought for.

[Lancebloke]

David - I am sure there are lots of histories we could go back to that have been catalysts for what is happening now. Just a big chain of ego/power/religious/generally stupid events really.

[Lancebloke]

Bungo - why not? They all fight for what they believe in. America has done some pretty fucked up stuff over the years, as have the British and the vast majority of major (and minor) powers.

[David H]

For me, it's helpful to recognize that Islamic State fighters and suicide bombers are just singing the same kinds of songs our fathers and grandfathers did.

What those idiots are doing now shouldn't even be remotely compared to what American soldiers have fought for.

I respect your point of view Bungo, but my father was combat infantry in Northern Europe during some of the worst fighting of WWII, very nearly giving his life for the cause, and he would have put it much more strongly than I did.

I think that lumping Islamic State fighters as idiots is selling them dangerously short though.  We know who many of these people are, and they've been successful because there are some very intelligent, well educated people who join the cause for these same kinds of ideological reasons that any revolution relies on.  Without that leadership, the IS movement would have been no more than an occasional riot.

[David H]

David - I am sure there are lots of histories we could go back to that have been catalysts for what is happening now. Just a big chain of ego/power/religious/generally stupid events really.

Yes there are Lance, but one chain stands out to me. it starts when the USA took our model for fighting Communism in Latin America (teaching local malcontents how to fight a guerrilla war and fund it with cocaine) and used it to set up training camps in Afghanistan to resist the USSR, substituting heroin for cocaine and Mujahideen for Contras.  When Serbia Bosnia Muslim massacres were happening, many American-trained freedom fighters from Afghanistan came rushing to their aid, bringing the fight to Europe.  As I understand it, that's when a lot of displaced Muslims started saying "Ya know, Jew's were second-class citizens who were displaced and massacred, and they were given their own Jewish State in compensation. Why shouldn't Islam get the same?"  And that's the moment when the ideology of an Islamic State began.

[azriel]

{{BTW when I was in elementary school we all were more familiar with the Battlehymn lyrics: "Mine eyes have seen the glory or the burning of the school. We have tortured every teacher, we have broken every rule. We are marching down the hall to hang the principal. Our truth is marching on!" I'm not sure where that came from or if it's still around among 8 year olds. It seemed hilarious then, but not so funny now... }}.....................

Bart Simpson would love you for it .
We used to sing similar songs when we were kids.

[azriel]

The war with Islam has been raging for century's. Funny how it all looked so romantic when it was with Knight Templars. Is this the longest running religious battle ? Praps there's something wrong with me ? I cant understand fighting & killing in the name of someone or something I have no proof of ?............ its me isnt it.

[David H]

The war with Islam has been raging for century's. Funny how it all looked so romantic when it was with Knight Templars. 

I think it's fair to say that it always looks more romantic when you're marching into somebody else's country than when they're marching into yours.

[Eldorion]

I think it's fair to say that it always looks more romantic when you're marching into somebody else's country than when they're marching into yours.

Paraphrasing Barbara Tuchman, it's always easier to build Jerusalem in someone else's land.

[Mrs Figg]

For me, it's helpful to recognize that Islamic State fighters and suicide bombers are just singing the same kinds of songs our fathers and grandfathers did.

What those idiots are doing now shouldn't even be remotely compared to what American soldiers have fought for.

I totally agree Bungo. for a start our grandfathers were fighting fascism, not for it, so the songs have a different meaning altogether.

[Eldorion]

Setting aside the fact that not every British or American war has been against a clear evil like slavery or fascism, I think the point of the comparison is not to draw a moral equivalence between the motivations of various groups, but to point out that the appeal of martyrdom and self-sacrifice is a lot broader than we're generally comfortable admitting. Though obviously not everyone who joins the military (or paramilitary) is excited about the possibility of dying, gloriously or otherwise.

[David H]

Well said, Eldo! And though I'm certainly not looking for moral equivalence, as I'm sure you all know I'm interested in grey areas, and I'm more interested in what things have in common that how they're different. And this is the BBS thread, so it seems like a fitting place to poke and prod a bit about something that's really troubling me. I hope you all don't mind.

So apologizing in advance, I'd like to single out this:

Setting aside the fact that not every British or American war has been against a clear evil like slavery or fascism

Are wars ever fought against clear evil? Again I'm drawing on my father's experience in WWII, but he drilled into us kids that wars aren't fought for or against good or evil, they're all fought by people against people and most of the casualties are civilians who wanted no part of it in the first place. That was his experience in WWII and that's not a world view that leaves a lot of room for black and white, just varying shades of grey.  

The Battle Hymn of the Republic was about a war fought by Americans against Americans, often pitting family members and friends against each other.  Whatever the moral justifications of abolishing slavery, that's insane! Yet hundreds of thousands of young men got wrapped up in the insanity and knowingly marched to their deaths on both sides! What's a person to make of that??? I don't know, but I think there are clues in that Hymn...

[Eldorion]

Fair points, and we should remember that there were other motivations for political and military leaders to get into those words, of course in addition to the myriad of very personal reasons why individual soldiers fought (including, of course, conscription).