Things that are making you crabbit!

Though I really enjoy you stirring the pot in TORN, I have to agree with Eldo that referring to people as idiots will cause anyone to be disinclined to check out the sites you touted. It's truly not a logical style of argument so will turn off those you are trying to attract. If I didn't know you already I would have been turned off by that post.

actually I would have been more turned off by what they said to Petty to begin with, why mince words?

and just an observation as regards attracting new members, the newbies that happily stay here and enjoy their posting here in the Shire seem to come from down the Bree road for the large part anyway, they dont stick around if they come from Mordor anyway. newbies seem to find they like the free air of Bree first.

I never called anyone an idiot Halfwise- I called their posts idiotic and said I would expose their posts for their idiocy if I had the opportunity. Thats not the same thing at all. I never name called.
Plus the post cannot be viewed in isolation but as a final post in a series of events- by which standard I felt I remained remarkably calm, all considered. Espeially as far more offensive and abusive coments were flying my way.

Thanks Mrs Figg. Glad you felt it was suitable.

Where's Orwell got to? I almost miss him when he is not here. I do hope he hasnt been smothered by groupies- still its how he would want to go.

I thought the Mordor thing was funny, not offensive to anyone, how could it be? Its a fictional realm.

I reckon Orwell is planning something Big, he is probably sat around a swimming pool in leopard print speedos with his agent.

Petty's infiltration and baiting of ToR was very entertaining, and achieved the stated goal of getting banned with startling efficiency. () At that level I'd rate the expedition as an unqualified success!

If the goal was recruitment though, I think it could have been done better, with a little less baiting and a little more humor. I shifted from Bree to here because I got a little tired of the occasional drama and lack of humor. Forumshire seems a more thoughtful place that takes itself less seriously and therefore has more fun, but I'm afraid that didn't come across clearly on ToR.

I wen there to bait, but to try to bait them into a proper debate on the films faults. I was not trying to recruit it just seemed an appropriate point to offer a glimpse of somewhere better to those who were supporting my view, and therefore in possible danger of a banning themselves.

But I have struck back by posting this:


You can't keep a good Tyrant down. (I am not sure the mods here are aware of what happens when you deny a Scotshobbit his freedom! I can assure you its even worse than Mel Gibson giving a lecture on the history of Judaism--but my accents better).
If the moderators who keep taking my freedom would care to come on here and publicly state why they keep banning me I would dearly love to know.

Now onto the more important matter. The posts there have been in response.

To those who have called me a whiner, a crying girl, or any other number of names, or those who have lazily accused me of wanting the whole book up there on screen, or that I have no right to an opinion unless I have made a multimillion dollar blockbuster movie myself I really have nothing to say to you. I never made such arguments or your initial proposition is simply too ridiculous to warrant any meaningful response. I am not responsible for the imaginings in your heads. And would much prefer if you kept them in there quite frankly.

The point of the debate I was hoping to have with you all was centred around the idea that PJ, who lets get this crystal clear is a skilled director and is to be roundly applauded for the sheer massive
undertaking he took on, as do all those involved from the person mopping the floor at the end of the day to the Producers who got the funding for it, lets his own personal likes overwhelm and supersede the material he is supposed to be adapting to the severe detriment of all concerned.

PJ made significant, fundamental and controversial changes to the original material which often works badly, even taken as film narrative -the inexplicable Faramir saga: how he knows 'my precious' is the One Ring, lamenting over a fallen enemy one minute and torturing information from prisoners the next, or even why the Ring fails to effect him all the way to Osgiliath despite his love for his father and desire to please him being greater potential weaknesses to the Ring than anything Boromir suffered, or why he chooses then, seeing Frodo trying to give the Ring away to his Enemy, to let Frodo go?- Just to cite one disastrous sequence of narrative.
Even taken even apart from its source this stuff is just poor, but PJ also rips out the heart of the source material.

Spectacle overwhelms the narrative, the character development and eventually even the main theme the book has, as stated by its author, death. In the moment Pj's Frodo turns away from the Ring and takes the hope and future represented in Sam's outstretched hand and in Sam's words PJ kills the books main theme stone cold dead. It also makes a mockery of the ending as PJ's Frodo only has a bit of a sore shoulder once a year and a headache to deal with, Tolkien's thinks he is a failure and never made any such choice to take hope, as a consequence he is never again free of the desire for the Ring and requires healing from it in Valinor before he dies.

PJ also goes expressly against the authors personnel belief of applicability when PJ rams environmental messages down our throats.
And before anyone says the book has those themes the difference is in how it is presented and arranged, and more importantly in whether how it is presented has been deliberately done to present a particular viewpoint of the presenter.
Or to put it closer to how Tolkien might put it these things should reside in the freedom of the viewer, not be enforced by the intentions of the director.

I believe these are all legitimate points for debate on a forum discussing the films and the books and I would love to get into a debate on these individual points, but I suspect there would be little point in me making a longer response to posts one by one at this point, as this post will no doubt disappear same as the last one did and this account be banned again too.
And I suspect I will still not know why save to presume that there is no tolerance here for difference of opinion.

When a site is in support of a film where several of its cast have had to fight for their own right to personal expression it amazes me this site does not seem to tolerate any at all.
You should all be hanging your heads in shame you know.

ps I can do this new account thing till the cows come home. Would it not be better to unban me or at the very least come on and explain why I have been banned, so I can at least see if your grievances seem at all founded? I am not an unreasonable person just one keen on freedom of expression.


Lets see how long that one lasts.

Continuing to try to sneak around their bans isn't going to impress anyone. If you feel so strongly that it was unjust then try e-mailing the chief admins directly, but I wouldn't expect much sympathy after registering multiple accounts there. I think I can understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with your approach. It's a private forum, and at the end of the day, they have the final say there. To use an analogy, imagine that you're at a party at someone's house and you get into an argument with the host. Now maybe the host is a total asshole and is completely wrong about the subject at hand. However, they tell you to leave. Do you leave since it's their house or do you plant your feet and start yelling at them? Regardless, you're eventually going to get kicked out, even if the cops come, but at least the in the first case you do so with your dignity intact. You have every right to be upset, but I think the mature thing would be to go home, not to hide in the bushes out front and try to sneak in through the window if someone happens to leave it open.

Besides, if your host is that bad, where's the fun in being at his party anyway? There's no way you can win an argument with someone who's just going to kick you out again, but by continuing to try you make it look like he or she has a point. If you've said your piece, then just walk away with your head held high. That's my advice, anyway.

So by that reasoning Eldo if a private club next door to your house excluded blacks for being black you would not protest? Or make a stand in any way? Not even complain?

I am not trying to impress anyone I am genuinely trying to make a fair point that opposing opinions are not something to be feared but to met in open debate.
Nor am I trying to win the debate- Im not going to keep making new account- just long enough to continue what others are are doing on there- which is questioning what is permissable regards critique on there and what is not. At best I hope to fan that debate.

And I used to think Americans would stand for the right of freedom of speech through thick and thin.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I signed up to ToR to see how long it would take me to get booted or start a war- but when I click on the email to validate it takes me to the page and says its validated- but when I try to sign in it says its not validated! Wonder if they know about me already?

The original goal was to see how long it took to get banned. They obliged, and I enjoyed watching.

I'm not sure what the point is now, though. If it's not in good fun, I'm not really interested anymore.

Private or not, the premis of the website is to discuss the works of Tolkien freely. Obviously if someone comes to abuse, curse or insult they should be banned. But if people come to discuss their opinions in any sane democracy they should be allowed a voice, there is a principal at stake here, its a slippy slope to deny people free speach, ok its only a hobbit forum, its not the Houses of parliament, but if these people are afraid of free speach it makes you wonder what sort of message that gives, what kind of people tolerate such goings on? The silent majority have a choice, they either put up and shut up or they make a stand. Its only a hobbit forum and its not going to change the world if Petty gets to speak, but its a sign of the times we live in and its creepy and sinister how they 'cleansed' him. They actually used the word 'cleansed', can you believe that?
I support Petty 100 %.

Thank you Mrs Figg.
I actually have no intention of posting there again and made that decision in the composing of that response (the opening and last lines are bluffs). I felt the point had been made and hopefully the debate started.

However I can now report some further movement- I have at last been contacted by a mod from the forum. I have made a response and await the outcome.
The may redeem themselves yet and open their place up to some fresh air. You never know making a stand might have counted for something ater all- however the mod who is posting seems less open minded than the one who contacted me.

ok now those TORners have really got me crabbit, they are getting hypocritical and vicious.
Listen to this mod, she was the one who banned me too. The hypicritical mod is insulting you or is she too thick to see that?


'Banning you,
was an error. Your IP address at the time was almost identical to someone who was banned at the same time and you were caught up in that ban. An Admin explained this to your friend that posted for you. Instead of being patient and letting us work out the kinks (which we're still trying to do), you chose to send your friend here to continue to insult our users, and re-register and cry foul when none was done to you except by sheer accident. How embarassed (and, I daresay, disappointed) you must be that you weren't being censored at all, and your resulting petty-rants are baseless.

However, both you and your friend have broken our terms of service by insulting the users here. I couldn't care less what user name you use, or what your views on PJ and The Hobbit are, you still must comply with our rules and desist from insulting other users and their opinions. Believe me, you can keep signing up forever, but we can keep banning you forever too.'

I insulted noone! The cheek!
This explantion she speaks of came when I made my last post here, above saying they had contacted me- that the first contact they have made with me directly-I returned a fair reply saying that my stance was in direct proportion to their treament of me and lack of response to my communications to their mods. And that it did not change the fact other posts in support of my position had also been inexplicably deleted. But that I would prefer to particapte in debates but with the freedom to crtisice where I see fit. But that I would happliy abide by rules of good contduct just not of censorship of opinions.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Thank you Mrs Figg.

However I can now report some further movement- I have at last been contacted by a mod from the forum. I have made a response and await the outcome.
The may redeem themselves yet and open their place up to some fresh air.

OK I'm still interested. Discussion is good.

I'm with Eldo on the rights of private property though. Free speech is everybody's right, but when I go into somebody's house and say it they've got a right to show me the door.

And for full disclosure, I've been shown the door many times, most recently from a grocery store for getting into a free speech discussion with another customer. What're ya gonna do?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:So by that reasoning Eldo if a private club next door to your house excluded blacks for being black you would not protest? Or make a stand in any way? Not even complain?

That's a ludicrous comparison and I think you know it. They are not forbidding you from entering the forum because of who you are. They kicked you out (after previously letting you in) because you went there to cause trouble. Granted, I think their standards for what "causing trouble" is are ridiculously low, but that's their prerogative. This is not a matter of persecution, just people being overly sensitive and, yes, biased in favor of one side of an ongoing debate. But overstating your case in such a way makes it hard for me to take you seriously.

I am not trying to impress anyone I am genuinely trying to make a fair point that opposing opinions are not something to be feared but to met in open debate.
Nor am I trying to win the debate- Im not going to keep making new account- just long enough to continue what others are are doing on there- which is questioning what is permissable regards critique on there and what is not. At best I hope to fan that debate.

You're not going to fan debate the way you're going. As a long-time poster on large forums similar to TORn (and a former moderator on one), they see bannings on a regular basis and they also see people trying to sneak back in on a regular basis. There isn't a lot of sympathy for that; the mods and most of the users will just file you away as a troll. I know that you aren't a troll, but given that you went there being deliberately abrasive, there's a limit to how much you can blame them. I didn't find what you posted to be inappropriate, but when visiting different sites, it pays to be aware of their different norms and expectations if you want to productively engage with them. I'll admit that I was under the impression that you primarily wanted to cause trouble when you joined, though.

I've probably been preachy enough in this thread as it is, but I've seen forums be consumed by creepy obsession over other sites that people were banned from. I'd rather not see that happen here but I'm worried by the amount of vitriol being directed at TORn. And you guys know I'm not their biggest fan either.

The line between calling someone an idiot (just one example) and of calling what they say idiocy is hair thin. In both cases I think people would be insulted, and justifiably so. There's been more than one of us on this forum who have stated that we would find the posts insulting if directed against us. I'm sorry if you were feeling attacked and responded in kind, but the way to win online wars is by de-escalation, not by matching attack with attack. It may go against typical human nature, but that's just the way it is. Everyone is safe on the internet, so there's no fear of retribution and flame wars are always the result.

Mods have power. Gods have power. Both will strike you down if you don't approach them the way they want you to, whether you like it or not. I know you feel put upon, but the approach you took just wasn't gonna have staying power.

I have been informed that the matter is to be discussed among there moderators but that may take some time. I may yet return to Tor and begin an open debate for all yet! (But probably not if the mod Mrs Figg posted is anything to judge by).

And I do hope a poster named sinister71 finds there way here if they now feel the intolerance at ToR has become to much for them.

People are discussing how much freedom they have over there on that thread Halfwise- some like sinsister71 I mention are gettng a chance to voice their feeling that any concerns or worries they say about the TH is being shouted down. If thats all its done, given some folk the opportunity to air their concerns, then I'm happy with that and dont see it as a bad days work.

And saying if you havent made a blockbuster film you shouldnt comment on one is idiocy Halfwise, no mate rhow you cut it. As it claiming someone wants every word on screen even after they have expressely stated they do not want that at all- idiocy. It is what it is.

Sinister71 is Todd from THM and he already has an account here. I'm not surprised he sided with you.

And saying if you havent made a blockbuster film you shouldnt comment on one is idiocy Halfwise, no mate rhow you cut it. As it claiming someone wants every word on screen even after they have expressely stated they do not want that at all- idiocy. It is what it is.

Even if you are correct about this (and I'm not going to wade in on that), calling someone an idiot is not the way to engage in productive discussion with them. That sort of thing might just be shrugged off on here (or it might not) but on a site like TORn that's considered a serious offense. This is part of what I meant about being aware of different norms when visiting other forums.

I said the argument was idiocy not that the poster was an idiot.

Most people would be offended by either statement, and it's irrelevant to my point about different norms since TORn frowns upon both sorts of statements.

I've made the same sorts of attacks before (including the whole "I'm not calling you an idiot") defense, and they're just that: attacks. Most people looking to have a respectful discussion would find another way to word it.

There are words less blunt than 'idiocy' that may be employed. If I call your thinking idiocy, then by implication the thinker is an idiot. Really not much difference at all. But if they are discussing their freedom over there, then I agree that is a fine day's work.

I do feel they may be influenced by PJ's affection for their site and don't want to lose that. I think the test is to start a critical discussion of the films in the most reserved and genteel way possible, even if people direct vitriol against you, and see what happens.

I should dig around and see how the community responded to the bunny sled fiasco, or the axhead fiasco, etc. There's the simplest test, methinks.

I think Petty has justification in asking why he was banned, no adequate reason was given, ok you have to follow their rules, but what rules? they seem to change the goal posts at whim, and thats irritating.

Halfwise - agreed on that. And, let's remember that TORn is no more a hivemind than any other forum.

Mrs Figg - I agree that their rules (and inconsistent enforcement) are irritating, which is the main reason I don't post there anymore. Asking privately is the best way to get an answer about bans from them, however, and it appears that Petty has done that.

They are arguing over how much freedom they have to voice concerns over there right now- how can that not be a better outcome than just seeing how long I would last there Eldo?- you were happy enough to go along and particapte in doing that fruitless activity, yet you seem adverse to me having stirred them up into discussing their right to speak out and maybe correcting an unhealthy culture that had developed over there. I dont get it.

I made every effort to contact them before asking them to contact me publicly on the forum- they did not respond until earlier this evening after I had made that second post.