Speculation about the Battle of Dol Guldur

Someone on TORn pointed out that, because the scrolls are chronological, the new promotional image is fairly conclusive evidence that the Battle of Dol Guldur will occur early in the film and not as part of the climax.  The implications of this are somewhat interesting to think about.

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I think most of us knew that the Battle of Five Armies was going to be the climax of the third film, and anyone who didn't know that was clued in by the title change a while back.  But the role of the Battle of Dol Guldur in all this has been somewhat unclear (unless I've missed some previous revelation, which is totally possible).  For starters, the book doesn't even specify what sort of events took place at Dol Guldur, but the prevailing interpretation is that Sauron abandoned the fortress at the White Council's approach, and any fighting there was token.  But Philippa Boyens has repeatedly used the term "Battle of Dol Guldur" with the media, and it seems rather evident that there will be a big fight there in the final film.

I recall reading a fair bit of speculation that the climax would be in two parts: simultaneous battles at Dol Guldur and Erebor wrapping up the whole conflict together.  I have been skeptical of this interpretation for some time.  In the book, the events at Dol Guldur are over in time for Gandalf to get to the Lonely Mountain before the battle.  While the book has not been a very reliable guide to predicting what happens in the films, i couldn't imagine (even before the scroll) that PJ would have Gandalf sit out the events at Erebor.  Gandalf's appearance at the far right end of the scroll should remove any doubt about his involvement at Erebor, so Dol Guldur will presumably take place at the same point in the timeline as it did in the book.

Nearly everything else about the context in which the "battle" takes place seems to be very different, though.  In the book, "the Necromancer" exists pretty much solely as a plot device to separate Gandalf from the Company (in the same way that his fight with the Balrog separates him from the Fellowship in LOTR).  In the films, Sauron has taken over the role of chief leader and organizer of the bad guys, and appears to be pulling the strings that lead to the Battle of Five Armies.  The closest role to this in the book was Bolg, who was the most important goblin leader in that part of Middle-earth at the time, but here he's been demoted considerably.  Even the resurrected Azog is simply a lackey of the Necromancer now, though still a leader among the orcs.  It remains to be seen how the Ringwraiths fit into this hierarchy, but it's probably Mordor-on-Anduin for all intents and purposes, with Azog and Bolg filling the role of (at best) Gothmog the rock-hocker from ROTK.

The thing that gives me pause, however, is the role of the Necromancer/Sauron as an individual.  Even though he remains disembodied, his scene with Gandalf in DOS was the most prominent that Sauron has ever appeared in any scene in the Middle-earth movie series so far (not counting the FOTR prologue) and the closest thing to a physical appearance before him.  Given this set up, it's hard for me to believe that the Battle of Dol Guldur is going to go through without a confrontation of sorts between Sauron and Gandalf and/or Galadriel.  My gut instinct is that Sauron would lose this, since he still needs to flee to Mordor, but dramatically I don't think that would work in the movie that PJ is crafting.  Showing the Big Bad losing (or running with his tail between his legs) before the climactic battle just kills the stakes.  Yes, in the book, Sauron's withdrawal from Dol Guldur was actually a calculated move in a very long-term plan, but since there's going to be an actual battle in the movie, Sauron just heading back to Mordor would come across much more as a retreat.

So, what might possibly happen?  The scroll shows Galadriel lying on the ground, grasping at Gandalf, which suggests that the Battle will not go so well for her.  Obviously she has to escape and be victorious by the end of the film, but I'm beginning to suspect that Sauron's forces are actually going to win the Battle of Dol Guldur somehow.  The movie will begin with Smaug's destruction of Lake-town, which is a blow to the good guys, but turns out to be a Pyrrhic victory because Smaug dies.  However, there has to be something to make things seem hopeless for the good guys before the climactic battle, because that's how this sort of battle is set up.  In the book, this is accomplished through the arrival of the goblin army, but that won't work in the films if Dol Guldur is destroyed by then, because the army is coming from Dol Guldur (strictly in the film 'verse).  They'd just be the remnants of an already broken power, and not much of a threat in the audience's eyes.  But if they are in fact a victorious army fresh from a victory over the White Council's forces, it puts the Battle of Five Armies squarely in the mold of previous Middle-earth battles, and fulfills the dramatic requirements much better.

I kind of doubt that PJ will go so far as to have Sauron himself lead his forces to the Lonely Mountain for the climactic battle, as he has publicly disavowed the idea of Sauron engaging in combat, which he almost included in ROTK. Sauron's "fight" with Gandalf in DOS and probably any similar confrontation with Galadriel in BOFA is mystical enough that it kinda sorta works within the framework of how Sauron functioned in LOTR (he was after all engaging in battles of wills with people via the palantir on a fairly regular basis). The question of how a disembodied spirit is supposed to move from Dol Guldur to Mordor has been a subject of speculation and amusement for years, but I've always speculated that PJ will just dodge the issue by not showing Sauron actually making the movie. But I do feel, having thought about this now, that it is very likely that Sauron will be victorious at Dol Guldur, and Gandalf will have to race to Erebor to warn everyone of the coming army and stop Sauron from conquering a quarter of Middle-earth 60 years ahead of schedule.

At the end of Gandalf's storyline, the forces of Dol Guldur are emptied, presumably to march upon the mountain (it's not ever made clear where they are going or what Sauron wants. {{{{Maybe I didn't read along with the subtitles}}}}) so that would leave Dol Guldur empty, with Gandalf swinging in his cage. By that time the WC shows up and frees him while kicking Sauron's ass Silmarillion style (meaning with singing or chanting) which probably drains Galadriel, hence her positioning in the banner. He then flees to Mordor, perhaps with some word of foreboding, but nothing to hint that he is strong yet. According to the Appendices, he doesn't attack Osgiliath or Mirkwood until much later. So Gandalf and friends head to the lonely mountain to warn everyone or help or whatever. The orc army (the "legion") led by the albinos will attack Erebor for some reason that is probably to vague or unemphasized to be understood and thus the battle of five armies, though technically it's four if they're all coming from Dol Guldur.

Granted, I haven't seen DOS since December or January, but was it really shown to be empty at the end? I know it appeared empty when Gandalf showed up due to the spell of concealment thingie, but I don't think we saw enough of the army marching around at the end to say if it was the entire force at Sauron's disposal.

Eldorion wrote:...showing Sauron actually making the movie.

Oh!
That explains so very much!

That looks like a well reasoned analysis. I predict a whole bunch of annoying and otherwise needless exposition shoehorned into the dialog to explain how Sauron gets from Dol Guldur to Mordor. They can't really show it, so they're probably going to have to tell it.

Eldorion wrote:But I do feel, having thought about this now, that it is very likely that Sauron will be victorious at Dol Guldur, and Gandalf will have to race to Erebor to warn everyone of the coming army and stop Sauron from conquering a quarter of Middle-earth 60 years ahead of schedule.

I can see the White Council driving the darkness from Mirkwood as a battle with no victory for the forces of good. There's no way they can destroy Sauron without destroying the Ring first. All they can do is get him to move to a different location. Sauron won't be defeated in DG, he'll just escape by the skin of his teeth.

Gandalf has already seen the army issuing forth from the fortress, so I think the "battle of Doggle Door" will consist of the WC, Sauron, and the Nazgul in their spirit forms. I'm certain we won't see them in their black robes, because: 1. we've already seen one in spirit form, and 2. PJ likes computers.

So, I'll speculate that the combatants will be: Gandalf, Elrond Hubbard, Aruman, Galadriel, Radagast, Sauron, Nazgul, a few miscellaneous orcs. I think Sauron will deal some heavy blows to everyone before running away. Gandalf will be like: "There's this big fucking army, I need to get to Erebor." He'll get Poop Head's staff somehow, french kiss Galadriel, and be on his merry way.

@David, that's what I get for adding a paragraph to a post I've already proofread and not going through it again.

Anyway, I first thought about the movement issue ages ago, and I have my suspicions...

I suppose it comes down to the definition of the word "battle", but I have always gotten the sense from the filmmakers' comments that there is going to be large-scale combat at Dol Guldur. You suggest an interesting alternative scenario, though, bungo. I'm sure the non-physical magic elements of the battle will be important one way or another, but I can't see PJ passing up the opportunity to shoe-horn in an army of Galadhrim for no good reason. Plus it does kind of make sense that when going to the headquarters of your biggest enemy you'd bring some soldiers along just in case.

bungobaggins wrote:I can see the White Council driving the darkness from Mirkwood as a battle with no victory for the forces of good. There's no way they can destroy Sauron without destroying the Ring first. All they can do is get him to move to a different location. Sauron won't be defeated in DG, he'll just escape by the skin of his teeth.

I dunno, I really don't think that sets a particularly compelling stage for the rest of the movie. I suppose it depends on just how early in the film Dol Guldur happens, because there could be time to make the stakes higher through other ways if it happens really soon. But they're gonna have to devote a fair amount of time to the good guys gathering their strength -- the Elf-king and Bard working together, Thorin and Co. strengthening the fortifications at Erebor, and Dain rallying his army of goat-herding warriors. Granted, most of these preparations are made for a battle against each other, but once they get wind of the orcs and stand together, there still needs to be something that makes the battle seem like a long shot. Both Helm's Deep and the Pelennor set this up by having most of the film up to that point consist of victory after victory for the bad guys. The death of Smaug already gives a huge boost to the forces of good, so I really can't say Sauron being put to flight in the first half of the film, followed by his army as the main enemy for the climax. It just doesn't make sense to handle a Big Bad that way. IMO.

Eldorion wrote:I suppose it comes down to the definition of the word "battle", but I have always gotten the sense from the filmmakers' comments that there is going to be large-scale combat at Dol Guldur.  You suggest an interesting alternative scenario, though, bungo.  I'm sure the non-physical magic elements of the battle will be important one way or another, but I can't see PJ passing up the opportunity to shoe-horn in an army of Galadhrim for no good reason. Plus it does kind of make sense that when going to the headquarters of your biggest enemy you'd bring some soldiers along just in case.

You're probably right on this; there will probably be a huge elven host at DG. Although in my mind this confrontation should be more "intimate." It's powerful beings dukeing it out in a small arena, why do we need a huge army to get in the way. But I guess if we have Elrond showing up decked out in full armor, we can probably expect something similar to the forces he was leading around in AUJ on their little warg hunt.

I dunno, I really don't think that sets a particularly compelling stage for the rest of the movie.  I suppose it depends on just how early in the film Dol Guldur happens, because there could be time to make the stakes higher through other ways if it happens really soon.  But they're gonna have to devote a fair amount of time to the good guys gathering their strength -- the Elf-king and Bard working together, Thorin and Co. strengthening the fortifications at Erebor, and Dain rallying his army of goat-herding warriors.  Granted, most of these preparations are made for a battle against each other, but once they get wind of the orcs and stand together, there still needs to be something that makes the battle seem like a long shot.  Both Helm's Deep and the Pelennor set this up by having most of the film up to that point consist of victory after victory for the bad guys.  The death of Smaug already gives a huge boost to the forces of good, so I really can't say Sauron being put to flight in the first half of the film, followed by his army as the main enemy for the climax.  It just doesn't make sense to handle a Big Bad that way.  IMO.

I guess we'll just have to wait to see how it all plays out. I can't think of any good way to tell this story now that it's been so screwed up. It worked so well in the book.

Perhaps they'll turn the whole defeat-defeat-defeat-victory thing on it's head and have several hard fought victories with the ultimate defeat of Sauron returning to Mordor and still having the whole War of the Ring to come. Setting up the Lord of the Rings triology.

We know the victories will be hard fought, with Dol Goldur, from the Gandalf and Galadriel pictures, the death of Smaug, with the burning of Lake Town, and the actual Battle of Five Armies, with everything we know from the books. But they have to be victories.

Agreed that the film has to end with a victory to make Sauron go back to Mordor: with him being as involved in the Battle of Five Armies as he is, it wouldn't make sense for him to just go of his own accord like in the book. However, I'm expecting him to only flee after his army at Erebor is destroyed and he himself is threatened -- whether because he's present himself or because the best part of his strength is gone, I dunno.

Yeah, and they are all essenitally victories. Smaug, Dol Goldur, Battle of Five Armies. So I guess a big question is how they will build real tension.

The Gandalf Galadriel pictures gives some hints, I guess.

[ Gandalf and Galadriel laying where they managed to crawl together, watching Dol Guldur crumble into fiery ruin all around them.]

Galadriel: I'm glad to be here with you at the end of all things, Gan.
Gandalf: Yes, at the end of all...wait, whoa, shit!  We've got three more movies to do!
Galadriel: Back off Grey-stuff, I'm moving as slow as I can!

hey I have a Q. I think I read somewhere that Galadriel purified Dol Gooblydoo with her healing powers after they ousted the Necromancer, and she left flowers there, (think it was Elanor flowers) instead of The Necromancers putridness. But recently reading LOTR, the Council of Elrond, one of the Elves or someone says that they dont go to Dol Gooblydoo because it is an evil place. So was it purifyed or wot?

Galadriel cast the walls down of Dol Guldur, but not until after the War of the Ring and the destruction of Sauron.
It seems that they have moved that into TH possibly.

oh figures.

Yeah, after the War of the Ring the area around Dol Guldur was actually settled by Elves from Lorien under the leadership of Celeborn (who stayed in Middle-earth for several decades after Galadriel left). I can't think offhand of any reference to what was done with the area after the events of the time of TH, though. Maybe it was similar to the later situation with Minas Morgul and everyone just avoided it due to sorcerous corruption or something.

As far as I remember Sauron had the Nazgul reoccupy it some years after the battle. So the fortress must obviously still have been standing, at least.

I agree that the second "Battle of Dol Guldur" must seem a lot more apealing in it's description to Jackson and co, with Galadriels show of power. But they can obviously not just transplant it for the first battle, as there, as far as I remember, are several references to Dol Guldur in the Lord of the Rings films. Might very well see some influences on the way magic is used and the battle is fought though.

And the second battle is narrated in the appendices, so they do have the rights to it.

Bluebottle wrote:
I agree that the second "Battle of Dol Guldur" must seem a lot more apealing in it's description to Jackson and co, with Galadriels show of power. But they can obviously not just transplant it for the first battle, as there, as far as I remember, are several references to Dol Guldur in the Lord of the Rings films. Might very well see some influences on the way magic is used and the battle is fought though.

I don't recall any references to DG in the LOTR movies.

Doesn't Legolas mention it?

I know they see it from Lothlorien in the book, perhaps that's where I remember it from.

If not they could of course translate the narrative and result of the second battle for Bo5a.

Well the new game Shadow of Mordor starts when Sauron enters Mordor again, which the creators are saying is in between the Hobbit and LOTR, so I don't think Sauron will get off easy in the films, since they do have a time frame to think about. But since when have these movies been correct about anything?

Bluebottle wrote:If not they could of course translate the narrative and result of the second battle for Bo5a.

Now this is a very interesting thought! I like it. Not the idea that PJ might do this, no, but it's gutsy speculation and one that gives me a lot to think about when trying to predict what the film will be like (see also: the "what's the craziest thing that might happen?" thread). I couldn't remember if Dol Guldur was mentioned in the LOTR films, but I ran over to the IMSDB and ctrl+f was not able to find anything. So I think the filmmakers are in the clear, continuity-wise, to do whatever they want with this storyline. I had assumed that the fortress would be left standing because that happened in the book, but its destruction would perhaps make the final film seem a little more meaningful on its own, while still tying into the set-up for LOTR. Of course, it would completely change the context of Sauron returning to the Barad-dur, and would undermine the sense that he is a threat (particularly to anyone watching TH before LOTR*), but i could potentially see this happening. Fingers crossed it doesn't, though.

*Just as there are people who watch the Star Wars prequels before the originals, and even those deluded souls who preach of the superiority of this approach, so will there be those who claim that the Middle-earth films are best enjoyed by starting with The Hobbit.

IMHO opinion the Hobbit SHOULD have been made so that once completed any viewer who watched the films after all 6 were complete should have been able to watch the 6 films starting with the Hobbit and finishing with ROTK. But as the films now stand there is too much repeating themselves throughout the films already for them to make any sort of sense when watched in any order let alone a chronological one. Something Jackson completely missed the ball on. I think had they taken the approach to simply make the Hobbit with out alluding to too much of the details of LOTR and letting the viewer follow the story from beginning ( Bilbos adventure there and back again) through Frodo's adventure to destroy the ring, while not giving away details of the next tale in the process. The whole of both adventures would have been better for it. But that is only MY opinion