Worship of the Valar

Oh I've got plenty crabbit in the tank Azriel   

Hee hee, Im sure you do    

Kenelm wrote:Can you summarise them? I thought, indeed, that you already had. My response was that there are always exceptions to the general trend.

My point was that if you adjust for relative numbers of believers and, as a result of this, relative numbers of countries making either sort of religion its official one, there isn't a general trend.  Of the examples I mentioned, State Shinto is probably the most relevant to your claims, being an official religion, a key component in other government-sanctioned ideologies, and a big part of how the Japanese leaders convinced their military to commit various atrocities (particularly the part about the Emperor being a living god).  You could argue that religious riots are not "organized and systematic" enough, but mob violence by a dominant group while the government turns a blind eye is a very common means of oppression that can be seen throughout history in various different contexts (religion, ethnicity, nationality, ideology, etc).

I shall not respond, incidentally, to any further ad hom arguments.

It's a common misconception that ad hominem is just a fancy way to say "you were wrong to say something unflattering about me".  In fact, it has a rather specific meaning.  As one definition reads, an ad hominem occurs when "a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument".  I have engaged your claims on their own merits, both in this thread and others, but it is very hard to come to a fair assessment about their validity when you tend to evade, stonewall, or shift the goalposts rather than engaging in even debate when challenged.  That is what I expressed frustration with.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:But if you want archaeological evidence for rituals, there's tons of it. Stone circles, for example. If the rituals didn't work, why bother building them for so long, over such a widespread area?- Kenelm

There is evidence of stone circles, not of rituals. There is evidence of animal sacrifice not what they were for or who to or why.

As to stone circles we know some of what they do. The can be used to predict eclipses, to tell the time of year and thus know when to sow crops and the like- hugely important things for a primitive culture to have knowledge of and that give a substantial technological advantage- evidence by the spread of the technology (and it is technology) from the north of Scotland to as far afield as the Mid-east and Africa.

The ritual involved in a stone circle is completely unnecessary to reading a stone circle- you can make one yourself with nothing more than a length of string and a stick if your patient enough to mark out the points of the circle according to where the shadow falls throughout the year.
And it will work perfectly without a single element of ritual required or involved.

Are you saying that there was probably no ritual activity at stone circles? I doubt that many would agree.

azriel wrote:Im sorry Kenelm, But, there is nothing, I repeat, nothing solid or concrete that suggests, proves or intimates that any form of spiritualism actually exists. Its merely interpretation of the ideas one would like to see as truth. You cannot bring the Battle of 1066 into it by saying "what proof is there....." Ive been dragged into a trap I feel, Your right, we all have to walk the path that suits us    May your path bring you enlightenment, fulfillment & happiness. I shall bow out of this before I blow a gasket    IL let Petty blow his   

I would heartily disagree, and say there is overwhelming evidence of the existence of a spiritual realm.

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:Can you summarise them? I thought, indeed, that you already had. My response was that there are always exceptions to the general trend.

My point was that if you adjust for relative numbers of believers and, as a result of this, relative numbers of countries making either sort of religion its official one, there isn't a general trend.  Of the examples I mentioned, State Shinto is probably the most relevant to your claims, being an official religion, a key component in other government-sanctioned ideologies, and a big part of how the Japanese leaders convinced their military to commit various atrocities (particularly the part about the Emperor being a living god).  You could argue that religious riots are not "organized and systematic" enough, but mob violence by a dominant group while the government turns a blind eye is a very common means of oppression that can be seen throughout history in various different contexts (religion, ethnicity, nationality, ideology, etc).

I shall not respond, incidentally, to any further ad hom arguments.

It's a common misconception that ad hominem is just a fancy way to say "you were wrong to say something unflattering about me".  In fact, it has a rather specific meaning.  As one definition reads, an ad hominem occurs when "a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument".  I have engaged your claims on their own merits, both in this thread and others, but it is very hard to come to a fair assessment about their validity when you tend to evade, stonewall, or shift the goalposts rather than engaging in even debate when challenged.  That is what I expressed frustration with.

You specifically sought to undermine my argument by calling me evasive and so on, which, as far as I'm concerned, is a form of ad hominem. You're also wrong, as it happens.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with the relative numbers suggestion. India and China have massive populations, most of which follow a non-Abrahamic religion or religions.

Are you saying that there was probably no ritual activity at stone circles? I doubt that many would agree -Kenelm

What I am saying is if you dont accept the mass of evidence for the Battle of Hastings that there is, then there is certainly no way you can claim with any certainty they was ritual activity from 2000-4000bc at them.

But my more general point was that a stone circle is an astronomical and mathematical instrument, just in stone.
You can predict a lot with them, seasons down to the day, eclipses to the hour, even when returning comets are due to appear if you've had your circle long enough.
The stones act as markers, the distance between them gives you a measurement in time and the apertures between them provide segregated 'windows' highlighting particular celestial events, such as solstices.

Now if you are a ruling class you can tell your people anything- that the knowledge i coming from the spirit world, their ancestors, directly from the Gods.
You can have a month of fancy rituals all around it.

But if you dont have any rituals at all- the circle still works just fine, still provides all the same information.
Its just a calculating machine in stone. And a damned clever and sophisticated one that must have been thought up by a genius.

But the only possible conclusion is no matter what the rituals were, they are not relevant at all to the working of the circle, or the knowledge that can be read from one by those who know how to.

But it is a great way of staying the ruling class and convincing your population you dont need to go hunt or farm and they should bring you a tithe of all they have so you can talk to the ancestors on their behalf.

here is overwhelming evidence of the existence of a spiritual realm- Kenelm

Yet you cant provide any, hardly surprising as nor has any other human being in all of known history.

Kenelm wrote:You specifically sought to undermine my argument by calling me evasive and so on, which, as far as I'm concerned, is a form of ad hominem. You're also wrong, as it happens.

I didn't try to undermine your argument by calling you evasive, I tried to goad you into giving a rebuttal with actual substance.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with the relative numbers suggestion. India and China have massive populations, most of which follow a non-Abrahamic religion or religions.

I've given several examples of non-Abrahamic religious violence from a variety of countries.  You've claimed that they're just exceptions to a general trend, but have made no effort to establish that such a trend exists by reference to any statistics or studies, and have mostly just repeated yourself.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Are you saying that there was probably no ritual activity at stone circles? I doubt that many would agree -Kenelm

What I am saying is if you dont accept the mass of evidence for the Battle of Hastings that there is, then there is certainly no way you can claim with any certainty they was ritual activity from 2000-4000bc at them.

But my more general point was that a stone circle is an astronomical and mathematical instrument, just in stone.
You can predict a lot with them, seasons down to the day, eclipses to the hour, even when returning comets are due to appear if you've had your circle long enough.
The stones act as markers, the distance between them gives you a measurement in time and the apertures between them provide segregated 'windows' highlighting particular celestial events, such as solstices.

Now if you are a ruling class you can tell your people anything- that the knowledge i coming from the spirit world, their ancestors, directly from the Gods.
You can have a month of fancy rituals all around it.

But if you dont have any rituals at all- the circle still works just fine, still provides all the same information.
Its just a calculating machine in stone. And a damned clever and sophisticated one that must have been thought up by a genius.

But the only possible conclusion is no matter what the rituals were, they are not relevant at all to the working of the circle, or the knowledge that can be read from one by those who know how to.

But it is a great way of staying the ruling class and convincing your population you dont need to go hunt or farm and they should bring you a tithe of all they have so you can talk to the ancestors on their behalf.

here is overwhelming evidence of the existence of a spiritual realm- Kenelm

Yet you cant provide any, hardly surprising as nor has any other human being in all of known history.

Ah, but I do accept the written evidence for the Battle of Hastings, just as I accept the evidence for the efficacy of rituals, which has been documented countless times throughout history.

You have fallen into the trap of repeating the old canard about a cynical ruling or priestly class manipulating the population with lies - an attitude derived from Christian writers (who, let's face it, are certainly the experts on cynical manipulation).

The evidence for the spiritual realm exists all around us. You have simply chosen to accept the current, fashionable materialist paradigm, which is an act of faith.

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:You specifically sought to undermine my argument by calling me evasive and so on, which, as far as I'm concerned, is a form of ad hominem. You're also wrong, as it happens.

I didn't try to undermine your argument by calling you evasive, I tried to goad you into giving a rebuttal with actual substance.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with the relative numbers suggestion. India and China have massive populations, most of which follow a non-Abrahamic religion or religions.

I've given several examples of non-Abrahamic religious violence from a variety of countries.  You've claimed that they're just exceptions to a general trend, but have made no effort to establish that such a trend exists by reference to any statistics or studies, and have mostly just repeated yourself.

Goading someone is not usually a good debating tactic, in my experience.

Since India and China account for nearly half the world, the small numbers of non-Abrahamic people who commit questionable acts shrink to a very tiny minority in proportion. On the other hand, religious intolerance and slaughter has been endemic in all Abrahamic societies throughout history.

Kenelm wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:All of what religions are justly criticised for, are, in fact, perpetrated by the Abrahamic religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

There are always exceptions. We need to look at the general trend.

wow, what exactly is this "general trend"?


so ok, you believe and worship the valar? the mythology J.R.R. Tolkien made up? i really hope this isn't gonna end up like the church of scientology, the religion made by a science-fiction-writer...

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:All of what religions are justly criticised for, are, in fact, perpetrated by the Abrahamic religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

There are always exceptions. We need to look at the general trend.

wow, what exactly is this "general trend"?


so ok, you believe and worship the valar? the mythology J.R.R. Tolkien made up? i really hope this isn't gonna end up like the church of scientology, the religion made by a science-fiction-writer...

Tolkien was inspired, in the literal sense of the word.

You have fallen into the trap of repeating the old canard about a cynical ruling or priestly class manipulating the population with lies- Kendalf

No I have not, I am looking at the obvious evidence.

If no one at all is at Stonehenge on the solstice the circle still marks the solstice- it doesn't even need people let alone ritual to function- ritual has no part at all in the functioning of a stone circle- yet its used as evidence of ritual magic?

The obvious conclusion is that it works perfectly without any ritual at all- therefore a priestly class who claims they get the information through any other means than mathematical are lying.

And from surrounding evidence we can say reasonably certainly that there were rituals associated with major celestial events, and processions to these events through sacred landscapes moulded by humans to reflect and enhance their world view.

But as we know now you dont need any of that to read a circle, and as the ruling class must have conceived of and constructed the circles, they must have known that too- they knew what they were building when they started.
Therefore any claims of ritual 'working'. 'activating' or getting the stones to communicate with the spirit world are spurious- thats not what they do, or what they were for, or why they were a new technology that rapidly spread from their centre in the north of Scotland to half way round the world.

They were successful not because of ritual, or ancestor worship, or spirit worlds, but because they were a working technology that made life much easier than it had been and which could be replicated anywhere you could erect a circle of things that stood upright (early ones were wood for example). Not only that but as you mark the circle out by the shadow cast by the sun they self regulate to the latitude in construction.

Like I said, genius- but technological genius, not spiritual.

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:All of what religions are justly criticised for, are, in fact, perpetrated by the Abrahamic religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

There are always exceptions. We need to look at the general trend.

wow, what exactly is this "general trend"?


so ok, you believe and worship the valar? the mythology J.R.R. Tolkien made up? i really hope this isn't gonna end up like the church of scientology, the religion made by a science-fiction-writer...

Tolkien was inspired, in the literal sense of the word.

he still made the Valar up, they're not actual gods...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You have fallen into the trap of repeating the old canard about a cynical ruling or priestly class manipulating the population with lies- Kendalf

No I have not, I am looking at the obvious evidence.

If no one at all is at Stonehenge on the solstice the circle still marks the solstice- it doesn't even need people let alone ritual to function- ritual has no part at all in the functioning of a stone circle- yet its used as evidence of ritual magic?

The obvious conclusion is that it works perfectly without any ritual at all- therefore a priestly class who claims they get the information through any other means than mathematical are lying.

And from surrounding evidence we can say reasonably certainly that there were rituals associated with major celestial events, and processions to these events through sacred landscapes moulded by humans to reflect and enhance their world view.

But as we know now you dont need any of that to read a circle, and as the ruling class must have conceived of and constructed the circles, they must have known that too- they knew what they were building when they started.
Therefore any claims of ritual 'working'. 'activating' or getting the stones to communicate with the spirit world are spurious- thats not what they do, or what they were for, or why they were a new technology that rapidly spread from their centre in the north of Scotland to half way round the world.

They were successful not because of ritual, or ancestor worship, or spirit worlds, but because they were a working technology that made life much easier than it had been and which could be replicated anywhere you could erect a circle of things that stood upright (early ones were wood for example). Not only that but as you mark the circle out by the shadow cast by the sun they self regulate to the latitude in construction.

Like I said, genius- but technological genius, not spiritual.

The majority of stone circles, and there are many hundreds in the British Isles, have no known astronomical alignment.

I would also seriously question whether the phenomenon originated in the north of Scotland. Stone circles tend to survive in remote, mountainous areas because there has been little farming to disturb them over the millennia. Logically, there should have been more of them where there was a greater population of farmers. That's why south west England is so rich in remains.

so stonehenge is basically a clock or a sort of calendar? makes sense..

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:All of what religions are justly criticised for, are, in fact, perpetrated by the Abrahamic religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

There are always exceptions. We need to look at the general trend.

wow, what exactly is this "general trend"?


so ok, you believe and worship the valar? the mythology J.R.R. Tolkien made up? i really hope this isn't gonna end up like the church of scientology, the religion made by a science-fiction-writer...

Tolkien was inspired, in the literal sense of the word.

he still made the Valar up, they're not actual gods...

He was inspired to write about them. They do indeed exist, and as Tolkien himself said, they have been known by many names in many cultures.

Norc wrote:so stonehenge is basically a clock or a sort of calendar? makes sense..

To reduce it to merely a clock or a calendar is to debase it beyond belief. It was a ritual centre, with causeways, burials and all sorts of things going on there.

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:All of what religions are justly criticised for, are, in fact, perpetrated by the Abrahamic religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

There are always exceptions. We need to look at the general trend.

wow, what exactly is this "general trend"?


so ok, you believe and worship the valar? the mythology J.R.R. Tolkien made up? i really hope this isn't gonna end up like the church of scientology, the religion made by a science-fiction-writer...

Tolkien was inspired, in the literal sense of the word.

he still made the Valar up, they're not actual gods...

He was inspired to write about them. They do indeed exist, and as Tolkien himself said, they have been known by many names in many cultures.

can you give me a source of where he said that and in what context, please. where do he say that they exist in the real world, outside of Middle-Earth.

i know for a fact (in the biography by Humphrey) that Tolkien thought of his middle-earth mythologys and sagas as having taken place in a time long gone, in this world, because he felt that the UK had lost lots of their old sagas and mythology due to christianity for example (other reasons as well). He was inspired by the finnish Kalevalla (probably not correctly spelled) and the norse mythology. But i say he "thought of it as such" not said they were real. 

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:so stonehenge is basically a clock or a sort of calendar? makes sense..

To reduce it to merely a clock or a calendar is to debase it beyond belief. It was a ritual centre, with causeways, burials and all sorts of things going on there.

to some people today, you mean. we have no idea what it meant to the people who built it.

Like any argument with any sort of apologist, this is going to go nowhere. I suggest you all conserve your breath/energy.

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:All of what religions are justly criticised for, are, in fact, perpetrated by the Abrahamic religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

There are always exceptions. We need to look at the general trend.

wow, what exactly is this "general trend"?


so ok, you believe and worship the valar? the mythology J.R.R. Tolkien made up? i really hope this isn't gonna end up like the church of scientology, the religion made by a science-fiction-writer...

Tolkien was inspired, in the literal sense of the word.

he still made the Valar up, they're not actual gods...

He was inspired to write about them. They do indeed exist, and as Tolkien himself said, they have been known by many names in many cultures.

can you give me a source of where he said that and in what context, please. where do he say that they exist in the real world, outside of Middle-Earth.

i know for a fact (in the biography by Humphrey) that Tolkien thought of his middle-earth mythologys and sagas as having taken place in a time long gone, in this world, because he felt that the UK had lost lots of their old sagas and mythology due to christianity for example (other reasons as well). He was inspired by the finnish Kalevalla (probably not correctly spelled) and the norse mythology. But i say he "thought of it as such" not said they were real. 

He said it as part of his earliest story cycle. Tolkien's own beliefs changed during his life, but this doesn't stop him from being inspired.

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:so stonehenge is basically a clock or a sort of calendar? makes sense..

To reduce it to merely a clock or a calendar is to debase it beyond belief. It was a ritual centre, with causeways, burials and all sorts of things going on there.

to some people today, you mean. we have no idea what it meant to the people who built it.

No, those are what we know took place there when it was built.

bungobaggins wrote:Like any argument with any sort of apologist, this is going to go nowhere. I suggest you all conserve your breath/energy.

I fully agree. Unthinking apologists for the materialst paradigm can be insufferable at times, not even realising that theirs is just the current belief system, like any other throughout history.

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:All of what religions are justly criticised for, are, in fact, perpetrated by the Abrahamic religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

There are always exceptions. We need to look at the general trend.

wow, what exactly is this "general trend"?


so ok, you believe and worship the valar? the mythology J.R.R. Tolkien made up? i really hope this isn't gonna end up like the church of scientology, the religion made by a science-fiction-writer...

Tolkien was inspired, in the literal sense of the word.

he still made the Valar up, they're not actual gods...

He was inspired to write about them. They do indeed exist, and as Tolkien himself said, they have been known by many names in many cultures.

can you give me a source of where he said that and in what context, please. where do he say that they exist in the real world, outside of Middle-Earth.

i know for a fact (in the biography by Humphrey) that Tolkien thought of his middle-earth mythologys and sagas as having taken place in a time long gone, in this world, because he felt that the UK had lost lots of their old sagas and mythology due to christianity for example (other reasons as well). He was inspired by the finnish Kalevalla (probably not correctly spelled) and the norse mythology. But i say he "thought of it as such" not said they were real. 

He said it as part of his earliest story cycle. Tolkien's own beliefs changed during his life, but this doesn't stop him from being inspired.

where did he say that? and also, what do you mean by "earlisest story cycle"? if it was early, he perhaps changed it for a reason. Also, Tolkien was a christian (protestant at first i believe, but he was raised in catholism, some lore-master correct me if i am wrong) until he died, so no, his beliefs did not change during his life.

and when you said he was inspired, you also actually say that he made it up.