Worship of the Valar

 

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Kenelm wrote:You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

Given that the members of this site are spread all over the world, we have only your word that your rituals (the "properly performed" ones) have revealed that The Silmarillion is a true myth.  Maybe you could give us some pointers on how to contact the Valar ourselves?

Firstly, you need to approach them with respect.

ok and then what.

Be guided by what they tell you.

well i respect them, they're pretty cool. 

nothing's happening. what language do they speak? 

am i doing something wrong? is there a specific way of how i approach them with respect?

I have a feeling you're not taking it seriously.

Quenya is a good language to use, if you're genuinely interested.

But, I'm going to bed now anyway. It's nearly 2am.

i am not fluent in quenya and also no one is fluent in quenya because it is a language Tolkien created and never finished. i am taking it seriously, but i don't understand how does two steps will lead to me "contacting" them. if i actually experience this through a ritual, i might start believing. that or a letter where Tolkien wrote it. don't worry, i am not one of thise sceptics who would call him deluded, i am too fond of his work to do this.

{{{*humming Schubert's fifth symphony* this is the language that Tolkien made and never finished*}}}

To twist the metaphor a bit, just because someone pays you for working hard doesn't mean you're not working hard. I don't think the concept of divine inspiration is meant to take away credit from anyone. You still have to do it.

Yes but much of Tolkiens inspiration is well documented, by himself in Letters. To say it comes from the Valar and not from him is to reduce his achievement as a human.

yeah, but it still didn't come from you, it came from God. and that i think gives the credit away.

Usually saying someone is divinely inspired is seen as a complement.

it depends though..

I think there is a distinction in the case Kenelm is making here- this inspiration comes from the Valar- which are characters created by the author in his fiction.
And Kenelm claims those same Valar exist as real separate entities who can be contacted and spoken with through some sort of magical ritual (the details of which have not exactly been forthcoming)

Question for the Fjordians. I mentioned Maes Howe earlier, a chambered cairn, its Norse name is 'Orkhaugr'
Does that mean anything in particular?

Just don't be calling ME an Orkhaugr!  There'll be some stompin'!  

Dinosaurs never existed. Their bones were put there by god to test our faith.

Prove me wrong.

Guys, let's not beat a dead horse. These beliefs may seem wacky to us, but that doesn't mean we should badger him over them.

RA, you are a better man than I. I admire your devotion to the principles of ELE. I really do.

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Norc wrote:

Kenelm wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Being inspired by other mythologies, religions and languages in no way precludes him being inspired from higher sources too.- Kenelm

True enough, but you would have to proof first such a thing as higher sources, in particular Valar ones, exist for that to seem a more likely scenario than he just wrote his work based on his own life experiences and made it up, the way all other fiction is written.

You've already told me you won't accept the proof that comes through ritual, so you're simply asking the same thing again.

Some great writings are inspired, not just made up.

if you could dig up some letters or something where Tolkien actually says that a valar came to him and "inspired" him, that would actually be a pretty good proof.

I doubt it. The sceptics would just say he was deluded.

you doubt you could find such a letter where Tolkien stated that? then you argument about him having a vision doesn't hold much ground.

No, I doubt it would be accepted as pretty good proof, for the reason I stated.

In any case, I never said anything about a vision.

it would be accepted as a very good proof if Tolkien actually wrote it on paper that a valar came to him and inspired him. 

you didn't say anything about a vision? then how did this valar come to Tolkien and talk to him and "choose" him on the basis of his talents?

They could have worked through him without him even being aware of it, though I'm not saying this was necessarily the case.

so they sort of mind-raped Tolkien? O_O (sorry joke)

but what you are saying is basically that Tolkiens brilliant writing, coming from the growing sceptisism to the modern word also called modernism, influenced by his experiences in the trenches of WWI, his hatred towards the nazis, his love for the forests, nature, trees, languages, mythologys, his whole life-work, was just some valar, gods, that gave it to him? you're basically taking away all credit for his hard work and brilliance and giving it to the valar. it's like saying i am good at playing violin because God flowing through me, not because i practice hard every day for   12 years.

To belittle divine inspiration in this way is hardly a mark of true respect.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I think there is a distinction in the case Kenelm is making here- this inspiration comes from the Valar- which are characters created by the author in his fiction.
And Kenelm claims those same Valar exist as real separate entities who can be contacted and spoken with through some sort of magical ritual (the details of which have not exactly been forthcoming)

The Valar inspired Tolkien to write about them.

How can you have a growing sect of people, all respecting & paying homage & divine worship to something that is made up fiction    Tolkien would shake his head in confusion I would imagine, its quite laughable in some ways, but, if thats what you believe & want in your life, thats completely yours to decide. I just really hate it when people try to make me see the 'light', & this is exactly why I do NOT believe in any Gods, Goddess's, et al because even tho the person representing said God/faith sounds plausible, it sparks off to many arguments, it gets heated, people get to dam defensive, voices raised, fist in gob, punch up then war ! Ooooh whoopie ! This is just what religion (of any kind) produces ! It doesnt produce harmony,peace & well being, we dont all skip along, hand in hand with big smiles on our faces, THATS been proved for centuries ! Man cannot get along ! He has to pick a fight with his neighbour, its part of our DNA. And my point being, when I went to bed we were on page 3, now, its page 10 ! Getting kinda 'hot' in here ?

azriel wrote:How can you have a growing sect of people, all respecting & paying homage & divine worship to something that is made up fiction    Tolkien would shake his head in confusion I would imagine, its quite laughable in some ways, but, if thats what you believe & want in your life, thats completely yours to decide. I just really hate it when people try to make me see the 'light', & this is exactly why I do NOT believe in any Gods, Goddess's, et al because even tho the person representing said God/faith sounds plausible, it sparks off to many arguments, it gets heated, people get to dam defensive, voices raised, fist in gob, punch up then war ! Ooooh whoopie ! This is just what religion (of any kind) produces ! It doesnt produce harmony,peace & well being, we dont all skip along, hand in hand with big smiles on our faces, THATS been proved for centuries ! Man cannot get along ! He has to pick a fight with his neighbour, its part of our DNA. And my point being, when I went to bed we were on page 3, now, its page 10 ! Getting kinda 'hot' in here ?  

It is inspired writing, not just "made up".

The religions you're talking about are the monotheistic ones, plus their modern offshoot, militant and self-righteous materialism.

The religions you're talking about are the monotheistic ones, plus their modern offshoot, militant and self-righteous materialism.- Kenelm

You keep lumping all critical comment into this defence that its just a monotheistic outlook.

But your description- militant and self-righteous materialism- can for example be said to be true of the city states of Summer- who had a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses to choose from.
The Greeks were pretty militaristic too in the past and they had a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses too.
The Aztec peoples were militaristic and violent, they had a pantheon of deities.
The pagan peoples of Europe conducted human sacrifice, as evidence by various bog people discovered over the years, they had a pantheon of deities.

So I dont think your argument its all the fault of monotheistic thinking holds water.


And I would still very much like a detailed description of the rituals you carry out, and how you go about invoking these Valar spirits you claim to be in contact with.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The religions you're talking about are the monotheistic ones, plus their modern offshoot, militant and self-righteous materialism.- Kenelm

You keep lumping all critical comment into this defence that its just a monotheistic outlook.

But your description- militant and self-righteous materialism- can for example be said to be true of the city states of Summer- who had a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses to choose from.
The Greeks were pretty militaristic too in the past and they had a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses too.
The Aztec peoples were militaristic and violent, they had a pantheon of deities.
The pagan peoples of Europe conducted human sacrifice, as evidence by various bog people discovered over the years, they had a pantheon of deities.

So I dont think your argument its all the fault of monotheistic thinking holds water.


And I would still very much like a detailed description of the rituals you carry out, and how you go about invoking these Valar spirits you claim to be in contact with.

It's true that Pagan cultures have, in the past, indulged in human sacrifice, but in most cases this was far rarer than Christian propagandists would have us believe, and in any case, as the Pagan cultures evolved and grew more sophisticated, it was phased out as barbaric. The cultures of Central and South America were exceptions to this trend - but then, there are always exceptions.

This is in a whole different league to the religiously sanctioned, systematic slaughter and genocide of non-believers carried out by the monotheistic, Abrahamic faiths throughout their history. Christians burnt heretics at the stake, and only stopped doing it when they lost political power. Monotheism also disconnects us from nature, and de-sacralises the natural world. It is only a small step from monotheism to atheism, a reduction is gods of just one, and the attitude of some atheists/materialists, as displayed right here for example, is straight out of the Christian repetoire of self-righteous, smug superiority, with a complete inability to put oneself in the frame of mind of those who take a different view, and a total unawareness that such a thing might even prove useful.

but in most cases this was far rarer than Christian propagandists would have us believe, and in any case, as the Pagan cultures evolved and grew more sophisticated, it was phased out as barbaric.- Kenelm

That is hard to judge. As I said before we only know about human sacrifice in wickermen from the Romans, who were enemies of the Druid culture and wanted rid of it- so it might just all have been propaganda, but it might also have been true as in some of the further more isolated parts of the UK animal sacrifice at least continued- until relatively modern times a small Scottish island used to burn cats alive in the belief that their yowls of pain would keep away evil spirits.
And it seems every time they find another preserved body from the late bronze to iron age in some peat bog that they have been ritually sacrificed and placed there.
But there is some evidence that it was religiously sanctioned and an inherent part of religion to them.

So it becomes hard to tell from this distance how much of what was said of the Druid culture regards human sacrifice was true and what was just giving them a black name by their opponents.
But I wouldn't say it was phased out because they thought it was barbaric- the Druid culture wasn't phased out at all, it was wiped out. They didn't stop sacrificing out of morality, they stopped because there was no one left to do it and their religion was smashed and cast to the winds of history, where it remains.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:but in most cases this was far rarer than Christian propagandists would have us believe, and in any case, as the Pagan cultures evolved and grew more sophisticated, it was phased out as barbaric.- Kenelm

That is hard to judge. As I said before we only know about human sacrifice in wickermen from the Romans, who were enemies of the Druid culture and wanted rid of it- so it might just all have been propaganda, but it might also have been true as in some of the further more isolated parts of the UK animal sacrifice at least continued- until relatively modern times a small Scottish island used to burn cats alive in the belief that their yowls of pain would keep away evil spirits.
And it seems every time they find another preserved body from the late bronze to iron age in some peat bog that they have been ritually sacrificed and placed there.
But there is some evidence that it was religiously sanctioned and an inherent part of religion to them.

So it becomes hard to tell from this distance how much of what was said of the Druid culture regards human sacrifice was true and what was just giving them a black name by their opponents.
But I wouldn't say it was phased out because they thought it was barbaric- the Druid culture wasn't phased out at all, it was wiped out. They didn't stop sacrificing out of morality, they stopped because there was no one left to do it and their religion was smashed and cast to the winds of history, where it remains.

That's true about the Druids, but other Pagan civilisations, such as the Greeks and Romans, phased out human sacrifice very early on, entirely of their own accord. Not that it was ever very common with them in the first place, but arguable instances are recorded from early periods.

Its true they phased it out, and eventually animal sacrifice too, but I am not so convinced there was a moral angle to it so much as a practical one.
Human and animal sacrifice is for more predominant presettlements.
Once you have towns it gets harder to sacrifice stuff.

The Jews ran into this problem once more of them were living outside the Holy Land than in it.
Dragging a lamb out the back of your house to sacrifice it tended to annoy your Gentile neighbours and leave you open to the accusation you were just an unenlightened primitive country bumpkin.

I think social pressure probably had a greater effect on the dying out of sacrifice as a practise than morality. After all you could take the kids to the arena and watch a virgin being raped by a baboon for entertainment, so its not like morality was high on the agenda.

Eldorion wrote:RA, you are a better man than I.  I admire your devotion to the principles of ELE.  I really do.

If you dig around enough in anybody else's mind, you eventually find things that in your lights is freaking weird.  People you think you know well.  Just some of this relative (hey, I don't see anything strange about it) weirdness doesn't come up in everyday conversation.

So if someone has a belief system that seems off kilter to me, so long as it doesn't affect they way they interact with others in some negative way, I just accept it as part of the fascinating plurality of humanity.  I didn't used to look at things this way, but when out drinking and watching meteors with someone I thought of as a very hard-bitten, marine type of dude, about 4 drinks in he turned to me and asked if I'd accepted Jesus as my personal saviour (I think I've told this story before.)  "Here it comes" I groaned to myself.  But he kept talking and eventually attached Jesus to space aliens and pyramids and was so far along I gave up hope in his sanity.  

But on thinking it over and realizing I had known Bob for years and thought him a fine specimen, I decided I had learned a valuable lesson.  I think I must be as oddball to him as he is to me, but since I wasn't the one talking he never had a chance to see my freaky (but eminently logical!) mind at work.  Now I just enjoy people for their freakiness and don't try to correct them unless I think it's dangerous (like my office mate who was using homeopathic medicine on his kid).

Edit: Newton's views on alchemy and the bible....if that doesn't convince you that highly functional people can seem to be teetering on the edge if you dig deep enough, nothing will.

Upon the green mound of Ezellohar Yavanna sat and sang while the other Valar sat and listened. Her song, with the aid of the tears of Nienna brought forth the Two Trees which gave light to the land