Following the Path of the Ancient Ones - the Valar

If there are I've never found a genuine one.

There are, or were (Ive been out the scene a long time) quite a few covens around this part of the world, attracted to all the stone circles and such no doubt, not one of them had roots past the Victorian era and the vast majority were created in the 60's and 70's or even later.

Scottish Masonry has the best claim on any truly ancient knowledge transmitted down, and even they cant claim anything earlier than the Middle Ages for the roots of it (The Grand Lodge dates to 1736 and the reign of King James. But the oldest Lodge is the Lodge of Kilwinning, Lodge no 1 and also known as Mother Kilwinning which can trace its roots back to about the 12th century).

I think you have to go to India to find any spirituality which can be documented as truly old.    American Indian, African...can't say for sure how far back they really go. Except for the Mayans perhaps.

Its not that the stuff here doesn't go back that far Halfy- we were  putting up massive stone circles, building temple complexes and burial cairns here 2000 years before the pyramids were conceived off.
But there is no through narrative- we can only speculate on the evidence what they were up to or what they believed, there is no line down which that stuff survives.

I suspect most places with ancient religion are like that. Far more lost than remembered.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:If there are I've never found a genuine one.

There are, or were (Ive been out the scene a long time) quite a few covens around this part of the world, attracted to all the stone circles and such no doubt, not one of them had roots past the Victorian era and the vast majority were created in the 60's and 70's or even later.

Scottish Masonry has the best claim on any truly ancient knowledge transmitted down, and even they cant claim anything earlier than the Middle Ages for the roots of it (The Grand Lodge dates to 1736 and the reign of King James. But the oldest Lodge is the Lodge of Kilwinning, Lodge no 1 and also known as Mother Kilwinning which can trace its roots back to about the 12th century).

The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance has documentary evidence going back to the 17th century, and other evidence going back to the 13th. It has been performed by members of the same family since time immemorial, who describe themselves as Pagan.

http://www.abbotsbromley.com/horn_dance

Its not that the stuff here doesn't go back that far Halfy- we were putting up massive stone circles, building temple complexes and burial cairns here 2000 years before the pyramids were conceived off.
But there is no through narrative- we can only speculate on the evidence what they were up to or what they believed, there is no line down which that stuff survives.

I suspect most places with ancient religion are like that. Far more lost than remembered.

Yep, that's what I meant by documented.  You have to be able to see that what was going on back then is the same as now.  Sanskrit, Mayan heiroglyphs, Chinese, etc.

Of course in saying that I rather unconsciously excluded Judeism.  It has as much claim to being called old and documented spiritualism as any.

The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance has documentary evidence going back to the 17th century, and other evidence going back to the 13th.- Kenhelm

And like I said- the masons in Scotland can trace their rituals back to the 12th Century- but that's not ancient round here that's modern- there is stuff here pre-dates all that by 3 thousand years or more.
12th Century is nothing- people here still hold grudges going that far back (try mentioning Longshanks here and people will still curse and spit at his name-memories are long for some things).





You have to be able to see that what was going on back then is the same as now. Sanskrit, Mayan heiroglyphs, Chinese, etc.- Halfy

Unfortunately the ancient religions here seem to have a thing for the primacy of memory above all else- so little was written- and what was written- if it was writing at all, spirals, cup marks ect- we dont know for sure what they mean.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance has documentary evidence going back to the 17th century, and other evidence going back to the 13th.- Kenhelm

And like I said- the masons in Scotland can trace their rituals back to the 12th Century- but that's not ancient round here that's modern- there is stuff here pre-dates all that by 3 thousand years or more.
12th Century is nothing- people here still hold grudges going that far back (try mentioning Longshanks here and people will still curse and spit at his name-memories are long for some things).





You have to be able to see that what was going on back then is the same as now.  Sanskrit, Mayan heiroglyphs, Chinese, etc.- Halfy

Unfortunately the ancient religions here seem to have a thing for the primacy of memory above all else- so little was written- and what was written- if it was writing at all, spirals, cup marks ect- we dont know for sure what they mean.

The Freemasons have very little resemblance the the stonemasons guilds they supposedly evolved from.

Maybe elsewhere- but Scottish Freemasonry has always been independent and of itself and with its own roots and rituals.

Officially Freemasonry doesn't even begin until about 1717 and the the Grand Lodge of England likes to claim its the oldest- which from a Scottish perspective is a joke. They deviated almost immediately from the older rituals and started inventing their own.

"Scottish Freemasonry has a distinct and unique character. The connection between the craft of stonemasonry and modern Freemasonry can be readily established in Scotland. This direct connection can be traced from the oldest Masonic written records in the world and which are the property of the Grand Lodge."- wiki

There's something  about this thread..   

I dont think there is any trolling going on Ringdrotten, but maybe some wishful thinking and misinformation.

Kenelm wrote:Do you know much about modern Pagan practices? They involve techniques for communication with the gods. It was not a great leap to try the same techniques with the Valar.

You're nuttier than squirrel shit, dude.

Actually Im not sure there is anything inherently nutter in trying to contact the Valar than in praying to Jehovah.

Yeah, I used to say stuff like that when I went through my angry teenage atheist phase.  The problem is that it ignores the social and cultural context in which beliefs are present.  Humans being social creatures, that's a very relevant factor when considering "nuttiness", even if an objective outside observer (like aliens) might not see much of a difference.

Just because lots of people are nutty doesnt make it any less nutty.

That's not how psychology works, bro.

So by that measure if Kenelm attracts a few million followers to his Valar religion it would in your view no longer be 'nuttier than squirrel shit'- it would be sensible and sane? Just because more people have gone along with it?

This is why psychology is not a real science.   

I can't exactly argue with the idea that psychology isn't a real science (no group of people that took Freud seirously into the 1970s truly deserves that label), but I am reluctant to describe the followers of a religion as "nutty" if they were raised in/around it and it has always been normal to them. Deluded? Possibly, depending on exactly what beliefs we're talking about. But indicative of mental instability? Nah.

Also I just really wanted to use the phrase "nuttier than squirrel shit" on here.

But all religions start with an individual they dont start with 10 million followers. You need a core nutter!
All that happens inbetween is that the madness spreads.

I just really wanted to use the phrase "nuttier than squirrel shit"- Eldo

And it is a good phrase   

Pettytyrant101 wrote:But all religions start with an individual they dont start with 10 million followers. You need a core nutter!

I'm not disagreeing with that.

And it is a good phrase   

*brofist*

Well, you've just blown off Kenelm. If you view religion as a form of meditation ('Ohm' or 'Amen', what's the difference) then I don't think he deserves to be called nutty in his face. He may have a more subtle and sophisticated view of things than he was able to get across here.

It's not for me, but if Petty can go through a Wiccan phase only to become convinced it's pure Victorian, I don't think we should be throwing others off the boat unless they are making a concerted effort to proselytize.

I did not mean Kenelm when I said nutty- I was using it in reference to Eldos post only.

Im all for people exploring their own sense of spiritualism- I did a fair bit of it myself and did some pretty 'nutty' stuff in the name of spiritualism (Going 'skyclad'- naked- to perform ceremonies in a country where a billion midges are waiting for a bit of exposed flesh definitely counts as nutty!!)

More directed at Eldo's outburst. Nice turn of phrase, though.

halfwise wrote:Well, you've just blown off Kenelm.  If you view religion as a form of meditation ('Ohm' or 'Amen', what's the difference) then I don't think he deserves to be called nutty in his face.  He may have a more subtle and sophisticated view of things than he was able to get across here.

He's been blowing off attempts to have a meaningful discussion about his ideas for weeks now. And he claims to have talked to characters from The Silmarillion, which I think qualifies as at least a little bit nutty.

Yeah, I know, I know. But it may be persona and mythologizing as a form of contemplation. I've found that people who you've known for years and can count on, when you get them drunk and alone they start spouting off about space aliens and pyramids. Took me many decades to learn that we may all seem off our rockers to everyone else once you dig deep enough.

So anyway, he has a very deep interest in Tolkien, don't think he really deserved a face slap that effectively chased him away.