The Lay of Leithian

Eldorion wrote:I can't speak for Jon and I'm not trying to lure him into a "gotcha" moment, but I'd imagine there's no legal difference, and the only reason a small personal website might fly under the radar is because it's not seen as worth going after.

That's what I was wondering Eldo. And if so Joe Smith with his little website is still technically violating copyright law (if others who do the same thing are, I mean], and so would 1000 more little Joe Smiths who do the same but individually also fly under the radar. Not that you said otherwise of course.

But obviously such judgments have to be made by the copyright holder and their lawyers.  And they do have an incentive to err on the side of caution and go after every potential violation in order to demonstrate a record of defending their intellectual property that they can refer back to in future cases.

I have also heard this, from William Cloud Hicklin I think. Or someone who posts as 'Solictr' on the web, perhaps. This might explain, in part at least, why some projects get halted, others don't.

Awesome discussion.  Glad to have had a hand in getting the ball rolling on this one.  I have a lot I'd like to say about each point that came up in the replies above but, alas, I am constrained by time (and, unfortunately, motivation) and another topic is filling my mind this week that I'd like to start drawing up some sketches for (the topic of Enigmas like Bombadil and their distinctly ever-present role in Tolkien's writing - that's the main one right now).

I do have retorts for just about each counter-point you took up with my post above Elthir but I think you get the general gist well enough.  Mostly I think that you're a little off in your take on being overly cautious about Copyright and, unfortunately, less enthusiastic about sharing, on a broader scale, the things that have interested you - specifically your take on the story of Galdriel & Celeborn.  I think that makes the world a poorer place in this sense: - it is sad for us since we don't get to see something interesting that you'd cobbled together and don't get to talk about it.  To this point I think it should be noted that not just the larger, headline-grabbing lawsuits but also pretty much all suits and punishments re: Copyright infringement are geared toward the real abusers - people doing mass distribution of a lot of material on the web.  With me it's one poem.  It's not a whole book, just a large chunk of one.  (This is in contrast to Blogspot which, cumulatively, had droves of sections from Tolkien's works reprinted on various sites - perhaps you see my point a little clearer when looking at it in this light.)  The arrangement of the material that I chose and what one might call the "Edition" I've Copyrighted myself (also there's some of my own original writing in there although always gleaned in bits & scraps from Tolkien's own words or his own take on the tale - the most extensive was my reworking of the end of Canto IV which I discussed to absurd adnauseum in my commentary... but I digress).  You are right that in a certain sense it is a blunt Copyright infringement - but in a more modern sense, when you look at the dynamics of the medium involved the point becomes virtually moot.  I would tend to think that the Estate wouldn't want to quash or suppress interest or discussion of the works it promotes and wouldn't want to be seen as being heavy handed towards it's own fan base.  On the internet in general one line of thinking in some instances is to post a work in it's entirety up for free down-load for the sake of promoting a product (like a cd for instance).  All these dynamics currently in play on the web turn a lot of our old thinking about such things as Copyright on their heads.  But I supposed our debate, the one between you and I (to the extent that it exists) comes down more to a somewhat shocked "You feel justified about doing such a thing?" on your part and a somewhat bland "Yeah, why not?" on my part.   

Glad you are appreciating the discussion, Jon. I was a little worried you'd feel you were under attack.

I'm afraid if the poem does become wildly popular and gets mass distributed you may have some problems. If you could link it inextricably (at least not separable without detailed effort) to you comments I think it's less likely to happen, and if it does get virally distributed in annotated form it's less likely to cause problems to you, since you modified the work with proper attribution and value added.

Then all you'd have to worry about is someone publishing it before you do.

the topic of Enigmas like Bombadil and their distinctly ever-present role in Tolkien's writing - that's the main one right now- Jon

Thats sounds interesting Jon, will that discussion be getting posted here (I do hope so)

Nice response Jon, what Halfwise said. I have a little to add, because I am annoying and there are no active threads about grey horses here currently (don't ask).

I can describe my take on the Galadriel and Celeborn story without worrying about copyright infringement, as I don't have to quote any material here to do so, but can refer to the sources rather. And if it's a matter of art, while the 'entire' thing might be considered a work of art, as I have elsewhere explained I feel it isn't in the best interest of art to cobble together, for reasons of inclusion not art, sources ranging from the poetic prose of the Later Quenta Silmarillion to a line in a letter somewhere, for example, or even something from the language or nomenclature inspired text The Shibboleth of Feanor.

I basically stuck to the words of the author no matter where they hailed from, which was my intent actually. Your project is different apparently, and I was not aware until your last post that you had added your own lines based on other sources.

With respect to copyright issues, one person to ask might be 'Voronwe' on the web, also known as Doug Kane. He's a lawyer and Tolkien fan, and had to deal with copyright issues -- at least for his book about The Silmarillion anyway.

Plus he has a website. So maybe

Pettytyrant101 wrote:the topic of Enigmas like Bombadil and their distinctly ever-present role in Tolkien's writing - that's the main one right now- Jon

Thats sounds interesting Jon, will that discussion be getting posted here (I do hope so)

Oh Bombadil has been discussed to death. Let's talk about his colourful, enigmatic ponies  

You can always discuss Bombadil! Thats the beauty of an enigma.   Besides I like enigmas, they make just as much sense dunk as sober.   

LOL. Point taken Petty.

Another time I guess Whitesocks, another time. Although techincally only Lumpkin was Bombadil's pony, now that I think about it -- well I can't remember, probably as ponies are not discussed enough.

No I believe you are right Elthir- Lumpkin was Tom's and the hobbits ponies went to him as they had more sense in their noses than hobbits.   

Pettytyrant101 wrote:the topic of Enigmas like Bombadil and their distinctly ever-present role in Tolkien's writing - that's the main one right now- Jon

Thats sounds interesting Jon, will that discussion be getting posted here (I do hope so)

,

Yes, definitely here, assuming I get around to it.  Bree has proven far too volatile.  My main interest at the moment is Tinfang, the earliest of Tolkien's enigmas, since he is mentioned in the Lay (the copy of my old site sitting out on the web right now doesn't have him but he's included in my hard-copy here at home - he's briefly alluded to in Canto IV (revised numbering)).  The character is semi-central to the main story of the BoLT but no one really knows what he is except that he at the very least part elf.  More on all this later...

Where's the bit about printing a whole letter from Tolkien's Letters above?  I thought I read something about it and now I can't find it.

Anyway, thanks for the concern about Copyright, Elthir.  I'll keep all of that in mind.

That all sounds very intriguing Jon, I look forward to reading your thoughts (and if you get it done before years end we might just have a third serious contender for the Best Lore in the Awards this year, comes with its own Lore Tower- although Elthir its current incumbent has put a good bit of Lore work in so far, so no pressure    )

Where's the bit about printing a whole letter from Tolkien's Letters above? I thought I read something about it and now I can't find it.

That was probably weeded out in my edit -- I edited some stuff as I didn't want to suggest you were making an argument that you weren't actually making. The bit about the letters went with it as it was really only hearsay in any case, and not from someone 'in the law business' (as far as I know anyway).

I'm guessing...

... I mean I can't remember everything about yesterday, especially after hearing what the 'Turner-dwarf' said to the invented 'She-elf-lilly' in some film based on The Hobbit.

I might have blacked out after hearing this (or become behorsed just by coincidence), but after that, much from yesterday is a haze.

So have you seen DOS Elthir, or just had a bad dream? Or cant you tell the difference?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:So have you seen DOS Elthir, or just had a bad dream? Or cant you tell the difference?

  

I only recently saw the first film on HBO Petty... it will be a while for the second... if ever... but anyway in a review or something somewhere, someone quoted a line by 'Kili' the Unbearded to Tauriel however (no need of quotation marks for the second name since there is no 'real' Tauriel to compare her to).

Jackson can still surprise me at least, although I don't know why at this point.

Elthir wrote:Jackson can still surprise me at least, although I don't know why at this point.

You can learn all there is to know about his ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years...

LOL. Nicely done Eldo!

Just out of interest who are the other contenders for the Lore Tower? If we are extending it to non Tolkien subjects Norc will be a shoein for Bendy Cabbagepatch knowledge.

The Crabbit Award on the other hand might be a very big category this year...

There are crabbits and then there are crabbits, and then there is ME!!   And dont you lot bloody forget it (especially about voting time!)   

malickfan wrote:Just out of interest who are the other contenders for the Lore Tower? If we are extending it to non Tolkien subjects Norc will be a shoein for Bendy Cabbagepatch knowledge.

The Lore Award has always been for Tolkien knowledge. I won the inaugural award, but since arriving Elthir has had it on lockdown.

But that's only because I've been starting threads about stuff I [think I] know about. The first trick we fake loremasters learn in fakeloremaster school. And Petty has already seen through another trick.

Also when I'm behorsed there is basically no one at the Tower -- for those days I've hired seven ravens to make noise in the Tower as if there is someone about, but sooner or later someone else is going to notice all the black feathers and put two and five together.

Plus, once I got confused and posted 'croak' in a thread, thinking I was supposed to act like a raven.

 {{{{Your secret is safe with me Elthir- for the agreed payments in buckie obviously}}}

I wouldn't mind throwing my hat into the ring for Loremaster - but the primary obstacle I have of course is that I haven't really posted anything substantial here yet (and I won't have time to do so before the end of the year). I imagine that pretty much disqualifies me. Only if posts elsewhere counted: but people would have to remember me from about a year ago over at Bree. Or would have had to have read my longwinded commentary on my old Lay of Leithian site. But I think only Eldorion and Petty actually got around to reading very much of it.

Maybe next year...

Ah well jon, even if you havent posted enough on here to win you have certainty laid out the qualifications necessary to be nominated a Lore Master- and as you say maybe you wont win this year- but you can take honour in the nomination.

Maybe?



This year I have both tackled and made more confusing one of the most confusing issues in all of Tolkiendom! So if I don't win there's a strong chance it will send me into a behorsing the likes of which would impress an eight-legged Rochben, which is Sindarin for 'horse-person'...

... you didn't know Middle-earth had centaurs, did you?

See? More lore. Centaurs in Middle-earth is ground breaking, hoof stomping, award winning stuff   

Petty wrote:Ah well jon, even if you havent posted enough on here to win you have certainty laid out the qualifications necessary to be nominated a Lore Master- and as you say maybe you wont win this year- but you can take honour in the nomination.

Awesome. Thanks Petty!

@ Elthir - Rochben will be referring to one of the folk of Rohan or their predecessors in the North. There are no centaurs in Middle-earth. Tolkien found all-things Mediterranean to be somewhat abhorrent. He was concerned exclusively with the north.