Re: continuing proofs America is wacko [2]

by halfwise Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:52 pm

though to be fair we didn't get to see the beginning that started the whole thing.

by bungobaggins Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:58 pm

True, but there's a point where people should just calm down and let things go.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:09 pm

there's a point where people should just calm down and let things go- Bungo

Shocked

by bungobaggins Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:17 pm

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:26 pm

So yesterday I'm reading about some hero kid who stopped a gun man in their school with pepper spray, but not before shooting some people, yesterday I'm reading about some nutters shooting police and random people, and today its another school shooting.

Its becoming just another week in American news.
Is there actually a point where America as a majority stops and says, "Hey, you know what, maybe anyone at all having access to any and all types of guns isn't such a good idea after all".
Does that point even exist?

I mean there is a reason we train soldiers and armed police, because you really shouldn't be using a gun without training!
Yet you lot give them out like sweets and with less regulation. It continues to boggle my mind and make me crabbit every time I see one of these tragic stories. Mad

by halfwise Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:31 pm

But you are missing the iron-clad logic that if more people have guns, there being more good than bad people, enough good people will have guns to shoot the bad people lickety-split.

This theory has been rigorously tested in places like the Wild West and Somalia. Twisted Evil

by bungobaggins Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:34 pm

halfwise wrote:But you are missing the iron-clad logic that if more people have guns, there being more good than bad people, enough good people will have guns to shoot the bad people lickety-split.

Oh, my word. Reminds me of the NRA after the Sandy Hook shooting. Rolling Eyes

What if people want guns for hunting? I don't think all guns should be banned. Don't people in the UK have guns for hunting? Of course they should have to go through a rigorous registration process and background check, but they shouldn't all be taken away, just the unnecessary ones. Shrugging

by David H Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:40 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Is there actually a point where America as a majority stops and says, "Hey, you know what, maybe anyone at all having access to any and all types of guns isn't such a good idea after all".
Does that point even exist?

No, not in our lifetime. If the Sandyhook shootings weren't enough to change gun laws, with all of the shock an outrage that followed, I don't think anything will change at the National level. It's got to be region by region, state by state, or not at all.

by David H Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:47 pm

Think about it like this Petty. Think about how many millions are killed by alcohol and cigarettes each year. Far more than by private guns, I'm pretty sure. So it should be common sense to ban them outright, right? Yet the people who like them REALLY like them and will fight to keep them, so all we get are age restrictions. It's pretty much the same with guns in a lot of places. It's just gotten a lot worse since the gun industry has started advertising like the cigarette and alcohol industries. What can you do?

by David H Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:52 pm

halfwise wrote:
This theory has been rigorously tested in places like the Wild West and Somalia.

The Wild West isn't so bad. It's a lot scarier in places like Los Angeles and New York. I never have to think about being mugged in the country. Rolling Eyes

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:05 pm

But cigs and booze are physically addictive, making it harder to just ban them outright. They are also much easier to make yourself than hand guns and submachine guns.

Here at least they are in essence phasing cigarettes out, numbers of smokers have fallen dramatically and year on year the price is increased through taxtation, it can be nearly 8 quid for a pack of twenty, about 13 and a half dollars. Making them increasingly too expensive to maintain a habit. And the price goes up every budget.

Maybe one day they will do the same with alcohol too. Its just I'm not sure Id enjoy being in such a human race. Mad

But guns is a different matter- their sole job is to kill stuff. Its what they are for, its their purpose in life. Killing.
Not a good thing to hand out to anyone who asks for one in my opinion.

by halfwise Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:06 pm

David H wrote:The Wild West isn't so bad. It's a lot scarier in places like Los Angeles and New York. I never have to think about being mugged in the country.

Basic population dynamics, predator-prey model. The number of interactions goes as the square of the population density.

Come to the city, I'll train you how to get mugged. Twisted Evil

I'm a pro at it: since I left the parental fold, 3 major cities, 3 muggings. (The key is to concentrate hard on anything except your immediate surroundings).

Give me a gun, somebody's gonna die; most likely me since presumably I'll be the nice guy in the exchange. Rolling Eyes

by David H Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:21 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

But guns is a different matter- their sole job is to kill stuff. Its what they are for, its their purpose in life. Killing.
Not a good thing to hand out to anyone who asks for one in my opinion.

Not true. I'd bet that far less than one percent of all bullets fired end up killing anything. Most are fired harmlessly at targets or tin cans. And the majority of guns are rarely if ever fired. Sport and Coolness are what sell most guns; killing is way down at the bottom of the list. I'm not entirely happy about that. I don't think it's a healthy attitude to have towards firearms, which are important tools in rural America. But it seems to be where the advertising is moving the culture-- Guns as Toys. Evil or Very Mad

BTW I just looked up the stats.

29,565 gun deaths,more than 400,000 tobacco deaths and 75,766 related Alcohol related deaths were reported in 2007

Just to put it in perspective... Maybe it could be said that cigarettes' sole purpose is to kill folks. They're certainly much more efficient at it than guns are! affraid

by halfwise Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:32 pm

A lot of people buy cars for the coolness factor too. Many who can't really afford it. I look at my car and have to admit, sadly, that duct tape isn't cool.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:06 pm

David its true you can do more than kill things with a gun, but they are made for killing things.
Cigarrette are not, as when they were first mass produced people were unaware of the fatal risks associated with them. They were not made to kill.
And as I mentioned they are being fazed out here slowly but surely.

I dont think its about the numbers things kill so much as the nature of them and their use.
There is a legitimate reason to own a gun, farmers here all have guns. But you should have a purpose, you should have to undergo checks, and you should be able to display you are mentally capable and that you have the facilities to securely store it when not in use.

Simple basic regulation of who can have a gun would be a major start in the US, but this mad idea its a 'right' that everyone can have guns stands in the way of any sensible regulation every happening as far as I can see.

by David H Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:10 pm

halfwise wrote:A lot of people buy cars for the coolness factor too. Many who can't really afford it. I look at my car and have to admit, sadly, that duct tape isn't cool.

Oh Halfy! You and your quaint urban notions! Rolling Eyes

You don't know how wrong you are! Cool

continuing proofs America is wacko [2] - Page 30 B93c7a2dc688454a4052e2306ceb8e2663d4a499f560dd1eb856dc1aa19a580b

by David H Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:22 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Simple basic regulation of who can have a gun would be a major start in the US, but this mad idea its a 'right' that everyone can have guns stands in the way of any sensible regulation every happening as far as I can see.

I think almost all of our elected officials and civil servants recognize what you're saying Petty, at least in part. That's why nobody's allowed to bring a gun into any government buildings. They may be mad, but they're not stupid! Twisted Evil

Edit: they've banned smoking there too. Makes sense really. Secondhand smoke is rather like a randomly discharged pistol.

by David H Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:36 am

halfwise wrote:

Come to the city, I'll train you how to get mugged.

OOoooo! I missed this invitation! Very Happy

Can we go to that funky old-time blues bar you were talking about first? I've always dreamed of getting mugged outside a funky blues bar! bounce

by halfwise Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:36 am

I don't remember mentioning a blues bar, but if I did mention a funky old time blues bar it's in a perfect neighborhood for getting mugged. It's actually funky enough that you'd fit in better wearing your farm clothes than any city clothes you may have brought.

I do remember mentioning a really old bar that predates the Civil War. But they don't have live music, and the neighborhood is totally unsuitable for getting mugged. Used to be a sleepy part of town, then about 30 years ago the youngsters took over and now the streets are more busy at 3 in the morning than at noon.

by David H Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:25 am

halfwise wrote:

I do remember mentioning a really old bar that predates the Civil War. But they don't have live music, and the neighborhood is totally unsuitable for getting mugged. Used to be a sleepy part of town, then about 30 years ago the youngsters took over and now the streets are more busy at 3 in the morning than at noon.

You're right of course. In my excitement about getting mugged, I accidentally crossed the ancient bar with a musical discussion I think we had.

I'm thinking maybe we should hit the pre-Civil War bar first while we still have money, then go down to the blues bar to get mugged. But hey, what do I know? You're the pro. I'll follow you! Very Happy

by halfwise Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:07 am

Best time to hit the pre-civil war bar is around 11 am when it opens. None of the kids have woken up yet, so you can wander about and read the newspaper clippings on the wall. Hang around long enough to see how the staff packs newcomers around the tables with strangers, all of whom get along great, lulled by the feeling of sawdust under their toes.

Then hike down and across the Brooklyn Bridge, to where the wars between the extended family of the original pizza dynasty has recently resulted in 3 of the best pizzarias in town grouped right next to each other: pick whichever one has shortest line.

Around 9 pm show up at the blues bar to grab a seat before the music starts and the place starts filling up. It may seem like the best part happens when the band goes parading down the bar, still playing, but don't leave before the guy walks in sometime after 11 pm carrying his tap dance floor over his shoulder.

Get steadily more drunk, exit while holding intense yet contemplative discussion, leaning against each other to prop ourselves up. Wander in circles while avoiding active streets, stopping to look blearily at street signs as if lost....that should do the trick.

by David H Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:48 am

Teach me your ways, O Half-Wise One!

by bungobaggins Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:05 pm

http://pix11.com/2014/06/10/nj-dad-says-state-is-threatening-to-take-away-son-after-pencil-twirling-incident/

by David H Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:46 pm

On the gun control debate, I just heard a story on Campaign2Unload on the radio. The idea is to hit the gun industry (which is the main roadblock to gun reform) where it hurts.

Huffington Post wrote:If you're one of the 51 million Americans with a 401(k) plan, odds are that you're investing in gun and ammunition manufacturers Smith & Wesson, Sturm, Ruger & Co., and Olin Corporation.

Campaign to Unload, a coalition of gun control advocates, is trying to get Americans' retirement money out of the gun industry. It may not be easy.

U.S. 401(k) accounts hold shares worth roughly $2 billion in these three publicly traded gun and ammunition makers, according to FactSet Research Systems, a financial data company. Overall, 401(k) plans held an estimated $3.5 trillion in assets in 2012.

On April 29, Campaign to Unload launched Unload Your 401(k), a website that lets people see if their 401(k) retirement plan invests in publicly traded gun companies. Roughly half the shares of the three companies are held by mutual funds and institutional investors. The goal is to prompt people to invest their money elsewhere.

It's a similar strategy to that once employed against South African apartheid. In the 1980s, colleges, institutional investors and local governments were pressured to stop investing in companies affiliated with the apartheid regime. Public pressure mounted, and eventually the U.S. government banned investment in South African companies and barred many imports from the country. The divestment and sanctions undermined the South African economy, helping lead to the fall of apartheid several years later.

Similar movements have pushed for divestment from tobacco and fossil fuel companies, with varying levels of success.

"When people learn they might be invested in a company that helps to perpetuate senseless gun violence, it's a horrifying thought," said Cathie Whittenburg, communications director for States United to Prevent Gun Violence, one of the organizations behind the latest campaign.

Smith & Wesson; Sturm, Ruger & Co.; and Olin Corporation did not respond to HuffPost's requests for comment.

http://www.campaign2unload.org/