Should America/NATO support Syrian resistance the way it did in Libya?

I hope Eldo wakes up soon, else with only me to carry the discussion, boredom is setting in and I'm slipping into a state of smartarsedness - which some say is my natural state! 

Hello?

Anyone out there?

{{{Fook! Are they all asleep?  }}}

If I hadn't sworn a solemn oath not ever to come here, I could pretend to be Eldo and try to argue his case... but sadly... you know... solemn oath... sorry...

I guess if I put my two bob in, Eldo would think we're not taking his views seriously, me being a female an all, and not important....

Well, Eldo did suggest that he had trouble taking some of what you say seriously, Orwie.

Dud hee?  Eez uselly varry pileet... by goom.... i

Now everyone... we'll only irritate him... Off you go. Back to Little Forumshire you go...  




It's just so quiet... too quiet...

I find Eldo quite attractive. He certainly has a very sexy mind.. though I shouldn't say too much, should I?  

The year twelve girls at Our Ladies keep putting his photos up on the dorm walls. I find that disconcerting and Odo says he can't stand that kind of unrespectable behaviour.

I don't think talking behind Eldo's back like this is very proper. Come on, give him a break. He can't help his thoughts. I blame Petty and his Lefty influence. Poor lad. And I don't mean to sound patronizing or pompous, nor rattle Petty's cage at all, at all.

Ok consider my cage suitably rattled- you asked for it Orwell.

I have some problems with some of your contentions here.

Lets take the big one here first- that women in these countries are yearning and calling out for democratic freedoms and western style freedoms for women.
On the surface this seems likely- why would women want to be repressed, denied basic rights and liberties and to be treated like second class citizens?

Well firstly its worth rememberibg that a sizeable chunk of the vocal opposition to the suffragettes movement in the UK came from traditional Womens Institutes.
Things which fundamentally alter power balances in society are always tricky to accommodate and always at least temporarily upset the apple cart.

A non western country looking at the west may well see women with more rights than them- they may also see a growing plethora of single mothers struggling to cope, many of the traditional safety nets afforded to women in society removed in the name of equality.
They might see massive social crime problems among the youth.

In short there is much that can seem unappealing to bring into your society from the west as there is stuff that is appealing. Better the devil you know.

And the free democratic election in Egypt did not return a moderate liberal minded government of the type you seem to envision these people desiring- it returned a strongly religious party who repress. And women had the vote in that election too.

So I am not convinced your ideals on this hold out in actuality on the ground.

To be perfectly frank, I don't know why you tolerate all the Lefties here, Orwell.  

At last. The Opposition!  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Ok consider my cage suitably rattled- you asked for it Orwell.

I have some problems with some of your contentions here.

I knew it! I just knew it!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Lets take the big one here first- that women in these countries are yearning and calling out for democratic freedoms and western style freedoms for women. On the surface this seems likely- why would women want to be repressed, denied basic rights and liberties and to be treated like second class citizens? Well firstly its worth rememberibg that a sizeable chunk of the vocal opposition to the suffragettes movement in the UK came from traditional Womens Institutes. Things which fundamentally alter power balances in society are always tricky to accommodate and always at least temporarily upset the apple cart.

I agree one hundred percent. I invite you to note my comments on women and girls being allowed access to Education. Also my views on suppression and Paternalism generally.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:A non western country looking at the west may well see women with more rights than them- they may also see a growing plethora of single mothers struggling to cope, many of the traditional safety nets afforded to women in society removed in the name of equality.They might see massive social crime problems among the youth.

I agree. The fight for female emancipation is not finished yet - just a little more progressed in the West than in un-democratic countries.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:In short there is much that can seem unappealing to bring into your society from the west as there is stuff that is appealing. Better the devil you know.

Do you really believe that?  You should listen to women more Petty. (In Afghanistan you'll have to do it in secret).

Pettytyrant101 wrote:And the free democratic election in Egypt did not return a moderate liberal minded government of the type you seem to envision these people desiring- it returned a strongly religious party who repress. And women had the vote in that election too.

Free democratic election? That's debateable. Oh well, luckilly, it was overthrown when it's true intent was revealed. It was not a democratic government, but a Religio-Fascist Junta.  The good thing about Egypt is the number of people being heard supporting genuine democracy. I find that encouraging. But it'll take time to fully democratize the place. Good on them for trying. Good on them for standing up against Zealots.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:So I am not convinced your ideals on this hold out in actuality on the ground.

No, and that's exactly my point. The Americans are making an effort to support the Afghani government so that it can work to make it become the 'actuality on the ground'. Effort is required - not clever Western Lefty apologism for brutal Theocrats.

Effort is required- but not our effort- their effort.
Democracy is created from within a country- all attempts to enforce it from without meet with hostitlity.
Democracy is a weapon of the people against their ruling elite- the people therefore must craft their own weapon, suited to their purposes.
You cant bomb people to the ballot box. Recent history haa shown that in spades.

Perhaps if the West had led more by example and less by being devious lying bastards who speak in double standards we might be in a better situation with some moral authority, but we didnt and we arent.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Effort is required- but not our effort- their effort.

They have asked for help. The Government doesn't want America to leave. The majority of Afghani's themselves hated the Taliban. The Taliban were just more ruthless.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Democracy is created from within a country- all attempts to enforce it from without meet with hostitlity.

Umm... it's happening within. The Americans are there too - supporting it.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Democracy is a weapon of the people against their ruling elite- the people therefore must craft their own weapon, suited to their purposes.

Let 'em rot. That's actually what you're saying, you know.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You cant bomb people to the ballot box. Recent history haa shown that in spades.

Misinformed , misinterpretive and apologetic. My three great hates. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Perhaps if the West had led more by example and less by being devious lying bastards who speak in double standards we might be in a better situation with some moral authority, but we didnt and we arent.

True.

"Well firstly its worth rememberibg that a sizeable chunk of the vocal opposition to the suffragettes movement in the UK came from traditional Womens Institutes."

Ironic to think that these selfsame (paternalistic?) Women's Institutes were a sign of a growing movement toward Female Emancipation. How contradictory women are!  

The Americans are there and viewed by many, especially young disfranchised men, as invaders. This may be a lie but that is irrelevant if they believe the lie.
Afghanistan is a country where each success generation has fought in guerrilla wars going back to the British Empire days.
War can become a way of life just as any other activity can if repeated long enough- you dont break that cycle by sending more troops into the area.
I doubt those opposed to the West's presence really care why they are there- they are just another long line of foreign troops trying to impose something on their country.

That cycle can be broken, there is a roll for the wider world- but its not military- its more along the lines of UN activity in African states- reconciliation, the expansion of human rights (and yes thats slow and might take more than a generation- but the idea you can do it quickly with bombs is insane in my view).

So I am not saying let them rot- I am saying lets help them constructively to help and shape their own future- which is quit different from thinking you can just make them change to a future we want.



" How contradictory women are!"- Orwell

You'll get no argument from me on that one!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The Americans are there and viewed by many, especially young disfranchised men, as invaders. This may be a lie but that is irrelevant if they believe the lie.

Umm... okaaaay.... um... what?  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Afghanistan is a country where each success generation has fought in guerrilla wars going back to the British Empire days.War can become a way of life just as any other activity can if repeated long enough- you dont break that cycle by sending more troops into the area.I doubt those opposed to the West's presence really care why they are there- they are just another long line of foreign troops trying to impose something on their country.

The Afghan Government - however difficult it is, or how corrupt it is - is fighting to break the mould - like Western democracies did after thousands of years of similar barbarities.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:That cycle can be broken, there is a roll for the wider world- but its not military- its more along the lines of UN activity in African states- reconciliation, the expansion of human rights (and yes thats slow and might take more than a generation- but the idea you can do it quickly with bombs is insane in my view).

I definitely don't agree they are doing it with bombs - they are defending it with bombs. There's a difference.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:So I am not saying let them rot- I am saying lets help them constructively to help and shape their own future- which is quit different from thinking you can just make them change to a future we want.

The Americans are supporting internal efforts to make their country freer. The Afghans are having a say. If the terrorists stop killing people, then Freedom will grow. It devolves to what the true fight is. Freedom or Repression. Tacitly, by your arguments, you support the terrorists. As I said to Eldo before, stand up against Evil or be consumed by it. (Reference my Hitler analogy).

Pettytyrant101 wrote:" How contradictory women are!"- Orwell

You'll get no argument from me on that one!

That's why I like them so much. Endlessly fascinating and almost logical - sometimes. Ill fight for their right to be truly Free and themselves - whatever that is.  

what?- Orwell

The very fact troops from another country are in their country leads to opposition, particularly among young males. Simple.

"like Western democracies did after thousands of years of similar barbarities."

Yes, but from within, not imposed from without. And thats a fundemental difference.

The cold truth is if the West really wanted to do this, replace the governments in those countries with democratic ones quickly we would have to go in on mass, in real force and kill every last insurgent, their families and any who support or sympathise with them. And we dont have the stomach for that any more, the people of the West wouldnt wear it in a world of 24 hour rolling news and internet.
So we are left with the choice of mealy mouthed intervention or nothing at all. And given those choices nothing at all is probably less damaging to everyone.


"they are defending it with bombs. There's a difference."

Makes no difference when your family is collateral, or when your local school is accidenty hit, or hospital, or any of the other hundreds of examples of civilian casualities.
When your home is rubble and you are picking limbs from it that were once your children I doubt you are consoling yourself with the thought that at least they were slaughtered by defensive bombs.


"The Americans are supporting internal efforts to make their country freer."

No he Americans are supporting a government whose candidates the West choose because they were the most sympathetic to us, and not unimportantly sympathetic to western interest regarding oi pipelines through Afghanistan to the Caspian Sea.
he very basis of the 'democratic' government we are supporting is flawed and hypocritical- its a patsy state more akin to the releationship between of King Herod in Palestine to the Roman Empire.

Where did you go Orwell- you slippery Ozhobits yi!  
Its because I had you in the grip of incontrovertible crabbit reasoning isnt it?  

I had a bath if you must know - deep in a state of satisfaction with my last post... I was reading "Lord Howl's Castle" that a friend bought for me. Wonderful book so far. The kind of book J.K. Rowling might have written if she was less derivative and more resfreshingly imaginative.  

And then I had a shower too.

and a shave...

But what do you care you unashamed Lefty!   

I refute everything you said... at least, I'm getting ready for nighshift and haven't got time to demolish your puny arguments... except to say: well... I better refute them after all.... I shouldn't let you get away with them - not with so many young impressionable people here... 

"The very fact troops from another country are in their country leads to opposition, particularly among young males. Simple."
So we need to be scaredy cats then?

"Yes, but from within, not imposed from without. And thats a fundemental difference."
Yes and no. Within and without but not necessarily 'imposed'.

"The cold truth is if the West really wanted to do this, replace the governments in those countries with democratic ones quickly we would have to go in on mass, in real force and kill every last insurgent, their families and any who support or sympathise with them. And we dont have the stomach for that any more, the people of the West wouldnt wear it in a world of 24 hour rolling news and internet.So we are left with the choice of mealy mouthed intervention or nothing at all. And given those choices nothing at all is probably less damaging to everyone."
I don't think we need to be that extreme, do we?  

"Makes no difference when your family is collateral, or when your local school is accidenty hit, or hospital, or any of the other hundreds of examples of civilian casualities."
What about the non-accidental activities of terrorists? Not good either way - but one must attempt to stand up to evil. It's not an easy thing. But stopping evil is never easy - or without unfortunate pain.

"When your home is rubble and you are picking limbs from it that were once your children I doubt you are consoling yourself with the thought that at least they were slaughtered by defensive bombs."
No. Luck is involved, isn't it. Neverending oppression and arbitrary murder - or accidental injury and death fighting the former  evil forces?

"No the Americans are supporting a government whose candidates the West choose because they were the most sympathetic to us, and not unimportantly sympathetic to western interest regarding oil pipelines through Afghanistan to the Caspian Sea."
So it's that 'oil' furphy again. That's how immoral America is? Don't buy it.

"The very basis of the 'democratic' government we are supporting is flawed and hypocritical- its a patsy state more akin to the releationship between of King Herod in Palestine to the Roman Empire."
Nascent democracy. The first step. Do you have the courage for first steps, Petty. Clearly not.

"Its because I had you in the grip of incontrovertible crabbit reasoning isnt it?"
I was pretty soapy at the time you posted that, so I don't suppose any grip - however crabbit - would have held me... but thanks for the thought...  

I'll be back! Bye...

Orwell wrote:Suddenly I'm remembering something... Remember the Pilgrim Fathers' thoughts on Freedom? Are thery unworthy thoughts? Are they worthy of being embarrassed about if you're an American? (Actually, extend those laudable aspirations on Freedom of Religion - and Freedom generally - to women and girls and you have my whole view pretty much in a nutshell).  

I doubt if you would have liked the Pilgrims if you could have met them in person Orwell. They were more interested in their own freedoms than those of others, and I don't think women's rights were high on their list either.  Native Americans still refer to Thanksgiving  as "Thankyouforstealingourland&killingourpeopleday.

Who the fuck are all these people?

Just some old "friends" of one of our moderators....