continuing proofs America is wacko

David H wrote:Not an analysis really, just an observation that more money seems to be spent on recruiting, ROTC etc. in the redder parts of the map than the bluer parts. Of course there are recruitment quotas to met, so it's natural to go where you are most likely to be well received. But this means that when casualties start coming home they tend to hit disproportionately in some areas.

I take it you're from a military family, so I'm particularly interested in your perspective on this.

Not a military family in the classic model. I was only one in my immediate one to enlist. Though many cousins also did as well. No officers: just grunts, squids, wingnuts and jarheads. Was weird really, not a planned thing and we didn't talk about it growing up. But I would swear there is something in our genes. We hit a certain age and go stiff with crazy eyeballs and with hands out in front like sleepwalkers enlist. So like 9 of the 12 guys in my greater family generation found themselves in, and a few of the women as well. Most do only one hitch, a few stayed on like me. I am totally convinced it comes from my Irish side. I totally blame my Irish side.

Perspective. The last 13 years really sucked.

the Irish do have a tendency to like a good ol punch up after a few Guinness, whats the plural of Guinness? Guinnesses Guinnessii, anyway beer.

Turembar wrote:

Perspective. The last 13 years really sucked.

You know it's funny about that. My dad was combat infantry across most of northern Europe in WWII. My uncle served on the ground in Korea. Friends and classmates went of to slog through Vietnam. Friends and neighbors fought in Iraq. They all agree it sucked. Yet people keep enlisting, and then re-enlisting. What's up with that?

Your zombie/sleepwalking/Irish theory is the best I've heard so far.

I guess some boys grow up playing with soldiers and some with dolls; and some girls, when they've grown up, want the same priviliges as the men, one of which is to die fighting for one's country.

David H wrote:

Turembar wrote:

Perspective. The last 13 years really sucked.

You know it's funny about that. My dad was combat infantry across most of northern Europe in WWII. My uncle served on the ground in Korea. Friends and classmates went of to slog through Vietnam. Friends and neighbors fought in Iraq. They all agree it sucked. Yet people keep enlisting, and then re-enlisting. What's up with that?

Your zombie/sleepwalking/Irish theory is the best I've heard so far.

Just to specify what it was that sucked about it to me:

1. Questioning or disagreeing with the validity of the operations.
2. Thinking the operations had little or no chance of succeeding, and the sacrifices people made futile.
3. Fighting insurgencies where combattants are indistinguishable from civilians and civilians play both sides of the fence (understandably).
4. Fearing for the lives of the people that cooperated with us after we left.

Only the two operations against Bin Laden made sense to me. The initial one around Tora Bora in 2001 and the recent one in Pakistan.

can I have a hat like that?

Turembar wrote:

Just to specify what it was that sucked about it to me:

1. Questioning or disagreeing with the validity of the operations.
2. Thinking the operations had little or no chance of succeeding, and the sacrifices people made futile.
3. Fighting insurgencies where combattants are indistinguishable from civilians and civilians play both sides of the fence (understandably).
4. Fearing for the lives of the people that cooperated with us after we left.

Only the two operations against Bin Laden made sense to me. The initial one around Tora Bora in 2001 and the recent one in Pakistan.

What an agonizing list!

Just to play devils advocate here-

1. You shouldn't have signed up then. A soldiers job is follow the chain of command, to take and carry out orders not to question them. Thats the deal you sign up for. The politicians decide who and when you fight, the top brass decide how you fight and you carry it out. It ain't a democracy.
2. Same as 1. You have to hope as a soldier if your part in events seems futile on an individual level it is part of a necessary sacrifice for a larger success in the overall war.
3. This has applied in lots of wars over human history, soldiers have always had to deal with enemies who can slip into the populace, if you have troops in someone elses country this will always happen- historically the end game is either the entire annhilation of opposition or more commonly eventual compromise and treaties. This is the end game aimed for in Afghanistan- but you cannot get to that point without it seems a lot of fighting first. Its part of the job if you are soldier. Same as it always has been. You make the space in which the politians can move- and you do it in blood.
4. People choose their sides and must live with the consequences, normally in life those arent life or death choices, in a war they are.

Well that should make up for Orwell's absence!

OK. Since I know I won't be in France later this year, and Ebay will be saturated, I'll reveal my most guarded trade secret. It is actually possible to make your own Tin Foil hat. Although professionals like myself get it in bulk directly from the manufacturer, you can substitute the Tin Foil you use in your kitchen for cooking and food storage.

Some Tips & Warnings
It is very important for the shiny side of the aluminum foil to be showing when the hat is complete to make sure it is effective against alien rays or mind control signals.



And this from Shortnews.com...
11/11/2005 12:59 PM
Tin Foil Hats Found to Amplify, Not Reduce, Government 'Mind-Control' Signals Tin foil hats on, everyone - or maybe not. Tests carried out by MIT students have found that tin foil hats actually amplify 'government mind control' signals sent at frequencies which match those allocated to the US government. Several hat designs were looked at and "a 30 db amplification at 2.6 Ghz and a 20 db amplification at 1.2 Ghz, regardless of the position of the antenna on the cranium" was found. The students suggest that the government itself may have spread the rumour that the hats protect individuals from incomming transmissions in order to enhance their mind control programme.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Just to play devils advocate here-

1. You shouldn't have signed up then. A soldiers job is follow the chain of command, to take and carry out orders not to question them. Thats the deal you sign up for. The politicians decide who and when you fight, the top brass decide how you fight and you carry it out. It ain't a democracy.
2. Same as 1. You have to hope as a soldier if your part in events seems futile on an individual level it is part of a necessary sacrifice for a larger success in the overall war.
3. This has applied in lots of wars over human history, soldiers have always had to deal with enemies who can slip into the populace, if you have troops in someone elses country this will always happen- historically the end game is either the entire annhilation of opposition or more commonly eventual compromise and treaties. This is the end game aimed for in Afghanistan- but you cannot get to that point without it seems a lot of fighting first. Its part of the job if you are soldier. Same as it always has been. You make the space in which the politians can move- and you do it in blood.
4. People choose their sides and must live with the consequences, normally in life those arent life or death choices, in a war they are.

Well that should make up for Orwell's absence!

Unless I am misunderstanding, what I get out of this is your advocate thinks soldiers are, or should be like robots. Honestly, it seems ridiculus/facitious and puts me off continuing the conversation. But really your advocate does me a favor, cause I really did want to get back to concentrating on another project.

This is the BBST Turembar where ideas are challenged, that does not necessarly mean the poster always shares our holds those views but to further explore an interesting topic.
In that spirit I would say to your point about being like robots that it is true there is a degree of that- they are to some extend. There is a reason on a chessboard the pawns are the soldiers in the front line, and the word 'pawn' has come to mean someone who is manipulated into carrying out actions that serve the interests of others. Its not a secret if you sign up you are expected to follow orders, or that an army functions on an effective chain of command, and that chain of command always has at the top of it the Ruling Class of the country.

Petty, perhaps you should explain the rules of the game before you throw the ball in people's faces.

Turembar, I think what Petty meant to say was: "I am sorry I offended you, your family and an unknown percentage of the world. You will find I do that from time to time, but I never do so with the intent of being hurtful, that sort of just happens without me realising it."

Same goes for Orwell, I suppose.

[quote="Turembar"][quote="David H"]

Turembar wrote:

Just to specify what it was that sucked about it to me:

1. Questioning or disagreeing with the validity of the operations.
2. Thinking the operations had little or no chance of succeeding, and the sacrifices people made futile.
3. Fighting insurgencies where combattants are indistinguishable from civilians and civilians play both sides of the fence (understandably).
4. Fearing for the lives of the people that cooperated with us after we left.

Only the two operations against Bin Laden made sense to me. The initial one around Tora Bora in 2001 and the recent one in Pakistan.

Thanks for that, Turembar. My Dad passed away 4 years ago, and only in the last couple years was he able to talk about the war at all. The moral issues you listed are the kinds of things he was wrestling with for the rest of his life.

I have currently serving family members, although I have never served myself so have no direct knoweldge of the experience at all- but I am not being callous or disrespectful here. Those who oppose armed forces I often hear using the argument, "they knew what they were signing on for," or complaining about the blanket use of the word ' Heroes' to describe every solider in blanket fashion. I find these arguments worth exploring. I did caveat my original post with the words I was playing devil advocate, I was just exploring the counter arguments to Turembars points for the sake of debate. Offending was not the intention and certainly not the point.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Just to play devils advocate here-

1. You shouldn't have signed up then. A soldiers job is follow the chain of command, to take and carry out orders not to question them. Thats the deal you sign up for. The politicians decide who and when you fight, the top brass decide how you fight and you carry it out. It ain't a democracy.
2. Same as 1. You have to hope as a soldier if your part in events seems futile on an individual level it is part of a necessary sacrifice for a larger success in the overall war.
3. This has applied in lots of wars over human history, soldiers have always had to deal with enemies who can slip into the populace, if you have troops in someone elses country this will always happen- historically the end game is either the entire annhilation of opposition or more commonly eventual compromise and treaties. This is the end game aimed for in Afghanistan- but you cannot get to that point without it seems a lot of fighting first. Its part of the job if you are soldier. Same as it always has been. You make the space in which the politians can move- and you do it in blood.
4. People choose their sides and must live with the consequences, normally in life those arent life or death choices, in a war they are.

Well that should make up for Orwell's absence!

Are you sure?

Oh dear - I didn't realise you were so hard intellectually, Petty. I would never suggest such pragmatic things as you just did on my behalf. Devil's Advocate? What on earth is a Devil's Advocate?

{{{Well, sometimes I might, yes, maybe... hee heee hee... Not that one should laugh, Petty.... }}}

do I smell a serious and heavy argument/debate/discussion bubbling through the surface here?
could be interesting. Please! keep talking! I might enjoy this

No one wants to play Norc.

I'll play a little.

Not speaking for Turembar, but a lot of what he said he meant by "sucked" resonated with me from trying to get to know my Dad. He was a PFC in the 78th Infantry during WWII, and in the front lines of the battle of Hurtgen Forest, battle of the Bulge, and was with a small group that held the Ludendorff bridgehead at Ramagen, just to name the ones that Hollywood made movies of.

He hated talking about it, and as I grew older I realized that his strong ethical values were still shaken by the experience.

He'd earned a bronze star and held the battalion marksmanship championship, and several of his buddies have shared stories of how he saved their lives, but all he would ever say was "I did what I had to do", "I was taking care of my people", or very rarely "They were just kids too. Just like me and my friends back home. They didn't want to be there any more than I did". (Dad had grown up among German immigrant farmers and spoke a little of the language).

He would occasionally tell stories about hunger and the need to feed yourself, including taking chickens from the local non-combatants. He hated that. He knew it was stealing and that other people might starve because of it, but they were way ahead of the supply lines. I could go on, but I'll stop there.

The question I put to you is this: what is the effect of sending ethical people off to kill and steal? I know it scarred my Dad for life.

Would it have been better if Britain had just capitulated? It certainly would have saved a lot of lives, but my Dad needed to believe it was worthwhile or I don't think he could have lived with himself.

In america a soldier theoretically has the right to disobey an unlawful order. Not robots and I don't think they should be. This is why I prefer a volunteer army: I want soldiers who feel they have not completely given up their right of self determination.

A futile war is a harder case. Those who are already signed up of course should do their duty because their comrades are depending on them, but such a war should be allowed to wind up naturally as citizens vote by not signing up, or not re-enlisting. Unfortunately the American military dealt with this by a sort of inside draft in the form of multiple deployments.

The problem comes in not really understanding what one signed up for until deployed. I think Petty and Turambar are actually in agreement: Turembar did not in fact re-enlist. But there's a tone problem. Petty's post seems to be saying "stop complaining", when in fact if he had nothing to complain about, he wouldn't have voted his feelings by not re-enlisting. In a world where you can't have perfect knowledge, the agonizing feelings are part of the process. There should be no aspersions cast upon them. Again, I want soldiers to feel and express these feelings so it can be communicated upwards to those in command, not dismissed with the words "a soldier should do his duty."

Just to make technical corrections. I was in enlisted Air Force active duty 1980-2000. In 2000 I joined Army as a Civilian. Not contractor, but civilan member of DOD. Civilian DOD still essentially enlists & swears in, and is deployable in Army Uniform and after mini-basic. The difference is DOD civilian can quit. I deployed to Iraq twice, each for six months in 2004 & 2005, as a radar technican repairing army radar systems, not combat soldier. I only left the military for good in 2007 due to combination of non-combat injuries sustained on the job and in an off-duty car accident. Don't get Disability, but do have small pension from completing 20 years in the Air Force.

As far as reasons why enlist, it varies person to person. There were several reasons for me. The first catalyst seemed to be when during the Iranian Revolution they took our embassy staff hostage for something like 400 days. It made me angry and re-awoke a latent interest in the military, which seemed to me like a version of policing. Police handle inside, we handle outside. I was also attracted to technical field, and military has like the whole shebang all laid out.. schools, training, job, a roof and 3 square. The Air Force even has a 2 year college degree program. This was especially attractive during the recession going on at the time. It would also instantly get me out of the house and offered prospects of travel. Last was being in the catagory of people who for whatever reasons are thrill seekers. I was always do that sort of thing in the extreme sports of the time, sometimes crazy, right up to going in. I couldn't initially join because I had amassed too many civil violations & the recruiter told me to go before a judge in small claims court. I did and told the judge I couldn't get in militray because I had recieved too many points of civil (not vehicular) citations and tickets. They were for things like tresspassing, disobeying ordinances, disobeying police etc. He said this many was not minor and asked me what they were for. I told him Surfing and everyone in the court chuckled. He then performed a trial so fast, I didn't know what was happening. But some guy was my lawyer, there was a court recorder, etc. It all took about 3 minutes and some stuff was dropped, others were changed to different things and off I went.

"I couldn't initially join because I had amassed too many civil violations & the recruiter told me to go before a judge in small claims court. I did and told the judge I couldn't get in militray because I had recieved too many points of civil (not vehicular) citations and tickets. They were for things like tresspassing, disobeying ordinances, disobeying police etc. He said this many was not minor and asked me what they were for. I told him Surfing and everyone in the court chuckled. He then performed a trial so fast, I didn't know what was happening. But some guy was my lawyer, there was a court recorder, etc. It all took about 3 minutes and some stuff was dropped, others were changed to different things and off I went."



If there was any doubt I think you just proved you are our type of people.

I think it commendable that less-well-to-do hobbits go off and give their lives, so hobbits (like me) can run businesses and live in prosperous freedom and... er... employ less important hobbits who, if not for hobbits like me, would not have... err.. reasonably well paid jobs....

As usual Odo, well put but for all the wrong reasons!
My cousin enlisted because in the job he went into in the RAF he gets a shit hot apprenticeship and training to rival the best in the world and will be able to pick and choose his job when he leaves- all he has to do is survive that long. And statistically there is a good chance he will. Something George Orwell got right in 1984 was that wars of the future would be fought between relatively few combatants and that the mass casualities of the past would not be allowed to happen again. Think he underpredicated the scale of collatoral damage though.
At the level of the military where you get a good training in something useful, like a sparky, or an engineer, or mechanic, I can see the point, less so at the basic infantary level. Not sure what the appeal there is.

David H wrote: ...from trying to get to know my Dad. He was a PFC in the 78th Infantry during WWII, and in the front lines of the battle of Hurtgen Forest, battle of the Bulge, and was with a small group that held the Ludendorff bridgehead at Ramagen, just to name the ones that Hollywood made movies of.

Just wanted to mention that if you haven't already visited these places, I think it is well worth the trip. They are all within fair distance of each other and could probably be done in a week, or less. Much of the area has not been developed and is very similiar to what it was in 1944, and there is also some very beautiful country. I have always gotten something out of seeing the places in person. I think you could put together a pretty close route to the 78th, and in places even his specific Regiment if you know it. I would guess 310th because of Remagen.