Entwives

In the first chapter of LotR there is gossip about a "sighting" of a walking tree in the Shire.

"All right," said Sam, laughing with the rest. "But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back."

It was Sam's cousin Hal who saw one, and he "for one", which implies other sightings too. Now I can't imagine a sensible hobbit out hunting (and therefore not heavy laid with buckie, one hopes ) on the moors would just "imagine" something like that. Tree-men? How about Entwives?

Could any one of us tell the difference between a Tree-man and an Entwife, especially if we only saw one in the distance? The (unihabited) parts of the Shire would be just the quiet kind of place an Entwife would live, far away from the south and Sauron. Brindbole Wood would seem an excellent hideaway.

What do you guys think?

I think you're right Anne. I reckon Tolkien put that in as a hint for careful readers.

I know a lot of people feel that way, but I'm not entirely sure. Most people seem to assume that the Entwives had a "walking tree" appearance similar to the Ents. However, it is explicitly stated that the Ents had a high level of sexual dimorphism and that the Entwives had a very different and non-tree-ish appearance. Treebeard says that "the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their had parched by the son to the hue of ripe corn [grain] and their cheeks like red apples. But their eyes were still the eyes of our own people." He also notes that even before their appearance changed, the Entwives were fonder of "lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests" as well as "green herbs in the waterlands in the summer, and the seeding grasses in the autumn fields."

Altogether this doesn't give a definitive picture of what the Entwives looked like that, and it's possible they might have been mistaken for trees by Hobbits, but I think it's worth keeping in mind their differences. However, I think it more likely that Hal saw a rogue Ent or Huorn from the Old Forest than it is that he saw an Entwife. The Ents were at least known to have at once point had a presence near the Shire, where the traditional home of the Entwives was across both the Misty Mountains and the Anduin. Treebeard's hope that the Entwives might be found in the Shire is, I think, little more than wishful thinking.

That's my speculation, anyway, I certainly could be wrong.

I wonder if Tolkien had that in before he wrote TT, or if he came back and inserted it? I doubt he knew about entwives when he first started writing, though it seems he was thinking about ents for a long time, as evidenced by references to MacBeth's Birnham Wood by biographers.

I've never dived (doven?) into Christopher Tolkien's works other than unfinished tales (and of course silmarillion); does anyone know if this had been mentioned in a footnote or something?

halfwise wrote:I wonder if Tolkien had that in before he wrote TT, or if he came back and inserted it? I doubt he knew about entwives when he first started writing, though it seems he was thinking about ents for a long time, as evidenced by references to MacBeth's Birnham Wood by biographers.

I've never dived (doven?) into Christopher Tolkien's works other than unfinished tales (and of course silmarillion); does anyone know if this had been mentioned in a footnote or something?

Don't know, but I can't believe Tolkien would have put it in, or left it in, if he didn't want to suggest Ents or Entwives. I don't think he would have meant Huorns as they kind of moved without seeming to 'walk' as such from memory.

I have diven into HME and this reference was written well before the Ent passages. As first written Sam says just 'giants' (as big as a tower or a tree), but this was changed at the time of writing to '... these Tree-Men, these here -- giants.'


I'm not sure the ultimate reference to trees necessarily has anything more to do with size here, but in any case the fuller description (considering the stride for example) seems too tall for an Ent or Entwife in my opinion.

Also, it's interesting to note that in the early writing of this chapter giants were mentioned in narration right before the conversation in the Green Dragon is described:

'Goblins were multiplying again and reappearing. Trolls of a new and malevolent kind were abroad; giants were spoken of, a Big Folk, only far bigger and stronger than Men the [?ordinary] Big Folk, and no stupider, indeed often full of cunning and wizardry.'

JRRT (draft chapter) Ancient History

And Sam will soon say: 'But what about these what do you call 'em -- giants. They do say as one nigh as big as a tower or leastaways a tree was seen...' Again this was altered to 'Tree-men, these here -- giants' but I would guess Tolkien had Mannish-like giants on his mind at the moment, even though he ultimately revised the passage concerning the Big Folk of course ('Tree-men' seems possibly to have been inspired by something being as big as a tree, although that's a guess too).

In any case Tolkien left this conversation in, but again I don't think Ents or Entwives -- while certainly tall enough to be called 'giants', were tall enough to easily fit the description.

It's great to have a scholar amongst us. I'm tempted to ask lots of questions along these same lines, but that would be misusing you. I should get my own shelf and RTFM.

Elthir when did Tolkien change the text from just giant to Tree-men? Seems to me if Tolkien revised this after he had conceived the ent scene then his choice to revise must surely have been made in light of this.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Elthir when did Tolkien change the text from just giant to Tree-men? Seems to me if Tolkien revised this after he had conceived the ent scene then his choice to revise must surely have been made in light of this.

Christopher Tolkien notes 'at the time of writing' Petty, which I take to mean generally when this chapter was in progress. I don't know how he makes this characterization, but he seems certain about it. Anyway he adds:

'(Was this passage (preserved in FR, p. 53) the first premonition of the Ents? But long before my father had referred to 'Tree-men' in connection with the voyages of Earendel: II. 254, 261).'

And had he thought this change was later, after the Ents had entered the tale, I think he would have found that quite worthy of comment. That said, the 'tree giants' and Treebeard enter before Tolkien actually gets to the chapter itself, and Giant Treebeard is much taller than he would become -- said to be about 50 feet high in one outline!


I'll add that Treebeard, in the final tale, is 'only' at least 14 feet tall, with the Ents that reminded of fir-trees said to be the tallest ents.

Could even an 18 or 20 foot ent walk 'seven yards to a stride'? Granted Tolkien says 'at least' 14 feet but I don't think we are allowed to play too much with that and imagine 25 or 30 feet for example. I put even a 'fir-tree ent' at about 18 or 20 feet tall, which (I think) would be significantly taller than Treebeard even if he were 16 feet tall (nor do I really imagine Treebeard as an exceptionally short Ent).


And thanks halfwise, but I'm no scholar!

Elthir wrote:And Sam will soon say: 'But what about these what do you call 'em -- giants. They do say as one nigh as big as a tower or leastaways a tree was seen...' Again this was altered to 'Tree-men, these here -- giants' but I would guess Tolkien had Mannish-like giants on his mind at the moment, even though he ultimately revised the passage concerning the Big Folk of course ('Tree-men' seems possibly to have been inspired by something being as big as a tree, although that's a guess too).

Why did he later alter it to Tree-Men? And was this after he came up with Ents? Maybe he later liked it as a 'hint' of Ents in later re-writing? And if not, who or what the hell were these Tree-Men?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Elthir when did Tolkien change the text from just giant to Tree-men? Seems to me if Tolkien revised this after he had conceived the ent scene then his choice to revise must surely have been made in light of this.

Sorry, Petty, I had not got to your reply before I replied to Elthir.

Elthir wrote:Could even an 18 or 20 foot ent walk 'seven yards to a stride'? Granted Tolkien says 'at least' 14 feet but I don't think we are allowed to play too much with that and imagine 25 or 30 feet for example. I put even a 'fir-tree ent' at about 18 or 20 feet tall, which (I think) would be significantly taller than Treebeard even if he were 16 feet tall (nor do I really imagine Treebeard as an exceptionally short Ent).

I guess in this discussion we should really look at the 'final' published text. If the final edit had 'Ents' in Fangorn and 'walking trees' in the Shire, Tolkien would have been aware of the natural connection readers would make, and so I figure he wanted the inference to be there. Why have changed Giants to Tree-Men otherwise? As usual with him, he suggests and so makes the idea more tantalizing.

Orwell wrote:I guess in this discussion we should really look at the 'final' published text. If the final edit had 'Ents' in Fangorn and 'walking trees' in the Shire, Tolkien would have been aware of the natural connection readers would make, and so I figure he wanted the inference to be there. Why have changed Giants to Tree-Men otherwise? As usual with him, he suggests and so makes the idea more tantalizing.

I've always assumed this was the case, never questioned it, particularly with the references to the Old Forest being part of the ancient forest. I always assumed that this ancient forest stretched to Fangorn and beyond so they were related if not the same.

Does Treebeard not even say somewhere that there was a time when a squirrel to go from Dunland to the Shire without leaving the forest? Might be misremebering.

I don't know why Elthir doubts it actually, Kafria. Possibly his/her Lore Master halo is slipping a bit. But is it slipping enough for Eldo to clutch it back?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Does Treebeard not even say somewhere that there was a time when a squirrel to go from Dunland to the Shire without leaving the forest? Might be misremebering.

He did you know. Case Closed, methinks. There were Ents in the Shire!

Been thinking about this some more- I am sure that the Old Forest and Fangorn are the same forest, they are just both all that is left of a once huge forest. Now Treebeard says "There are too few of us Ents left" and that as a result "the trees have become wild and dangerous"- now assuming the Old Forest is a cut off outpost of Fangorn and that ents don't seem to appear in hobbit knowledge one has to assume there are no ents in the Old Forest. In which case if in Fangorn few Ents means it has become wild and dangerous is that not also a perfect description of the Old Forest where the trees move and shift and have even mounted an organised attack on the Buckland? A place where a tree like Old Man Willow lives?
Given all that I believe Sams mention of tree-men is not coincidence or merely the left overs from an earlier draft. Perhaps not an ent Orwell, though I think its possible, but for some reason I feel an ent-wife is more likely given Tolkiens romantic leanings in his writing (and the song the elves composed about the ents and the ent-wives is a romantic piece, full of longing and missed opportunity).

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Been thinking about this some more- I am sure that the Old Forest and Fangorn are the same forest, they are just both all that is left of a once huge forest. Now Treebeard says "There are too few of us Ents left" and that as a result "the trees have become wild and dangerous"- now assuming the Old Forest is a cut off outpost of Fangorn and that ents don't seem to appear in hobbit knowledge one has to assume there are no ents in the Old Forest. In which case if in Fangorn few Ents means it has become wild and dangerous is that not also a perfect description of the Old Forest where the trees move and shift and have even mounted an organised attack on the Buckland? A place where a tree like Old Man Willow lives?
Given all that I believe Sams mention of tree-men is not coincidence or merely the left overs from an earlier draft. Perhaps not an ent Orwell, though I think its possible, but for some reason I feel an ent-wife is more likely given Tolkiens romantic leanings in his writing (and the song the elves composed about the ents and the ent-wives is a romantic piece, full of longing and missed opportunity).

I hope for an Entwife. But definitely an Ent. It was seen on the moors in the North Farthing wasn't it? My guess it lives in Bindbole Wood, north west of Needlehole. In our role-play story, I was going to have Odo go there and find out what the truth was. Shame about our role-play thingee - it kinda fizzled. (Shadows of the West, I think it was).

it kinda fizzled.- Orwell

As it seems has Lorient! Where did he go?

I think an entwife because whilst Tolkien likes to write about loss he never does so without a hint of the promise of hope- and the sighting of an 'entlike' personage in the Shire does for that me.

Me too. I've always liked the idea it was an Entwife they saw. Poor old Treebeard must have been fairly backed-up after that thousand years or so of female absence. Look I know he was in some sense a hominid, but I'm hoping he wasn't a homotree. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Orwell wrote: I guess in this discussion we should really look at the 'final' published text. If the final edit had 'Ents' in Fangorn and 'walking trees' in the Shire, Tolkien would have been aware of the natural connection readers would make, and so I figure he wanted the inference to be there. Why have changed Giants to Tree-Men otherwise? As usual with him, he suggests and so makes the idea more tantalizing.

But again the revision in question was made at the time of writing, not later after the Ents entered the tale (especially as realized in the draft chapter as compared to outlines or any brief 'one line references', like Gandalf being imprisoned by Giant Treebeard for example). And Tolkien did not simply change giants to Tree-men, he kept 'giants' and had Sam seemingly looking for a proper term, so to speak: 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen...'

So we have: these Tree-men, these giants, one 'bigger' than a tree was seen, or 'as big as an Elm tree' and walking 'seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch'

I think Tolkien, after introducing the Ents properly, might smile (whatever the original intent) to himself upon re-reading the earlier passage, yes; but he might also note that 'Tree-men' can easily be Sam's attempt to give another name to a being that is as large as a tree, and there is nothing in the exchange that necessarily means the being was actually tree-like in any other way.


But no one has yet tackled the question of height: while reading Tolkien embiggens us all in my opinion, Ents are not trees -- and since tallness seems such a factor in the Green Dragon discussion -- I don't believe Ents are near as tall as Oaks and Elms for example (full grown obviously). An English Elm, for instance, averages between 50 and close to 100 feet tall! Treebeard is 14 feet tall at least, so again, even if he is 16 feet tall that is significantly smaller to my mind (if large to us and a Hobbit especially). Can even the tallest of Ents have a seven yard stride?

In Marquette MSS 4/2/19 Tolkien made various calculations of the length and speed of an ent-stride, concluding:

'an Ent would take nearly nine hours to do 70,000 strides and presumably in that time would go 70,000 yards at least, probably 4 ft a stride.'

Hammond and Scull, Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings

A 4 foot stride is yards away from a 7 yard stride

And a being bigger than a tree, or as big as an Elm tree is far bigger than I imagine Ents.

I always imagined that if the Entwives were to be found anywhere it would be in Ithilien, the Garden of Gondor. It was a forgotten place full of overgrown orchards, herb gardens and was once a lush and fertile garden. you can tell by Tolkiens descriptions of the flora, the herbs and flowers. The Entwives were attracted to gardens and flowering fruit trees and all things to do with harvests and growing things. Ithilien was now at the time of LOTR forgotten, overgrown and wild. It was threatened by encroaching Mordor and orcs regularily made encampment and fires. The Entwives were probably sleeping, hiding and trying to protect the wild things in Ithilien. I imagine once Aragorn became king and healing began, faramir the Prince, that they would wake up and start busily tending their gardens again.

Mrs Figg wrote:I always imagined that if the Entwives were to be found anywhere it would be in Ithilien, the Garden of Gondor. It was a forgotten place full of overgrown orchards, herb gardens and was once a lush and fertile garden. you can tell by Tolkiens descriptions of the flora, the herbs and flowers. The Entwives were attracted to gardens and flowering fruit trees and all things to do with harvests and growing things. Ithilien was now at the time of LOTR forgotten, overgrown and wild. It was threatened by encroaching Mordor and orcs regularily made encampment and fires. The Entwives were probably sleeping, hiding and trying to protect the wild things in Ithilien. I imagine once Aragorn became king and healing began, faramir the Prince, that they would wake up and start busily tending their gardens again.

I love that thought, maybe Legolas and his folks found them. I mean they went there and did the forests or something in Ithilien, right?