Re: Homosexuality

by **Orwell** Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:24 am

Let me see. There seems to (mainly) be two perspectives.

(1) I believe in a God who no one has seen (verifiably), who inspired a book (that is not in all ways followed by Mormons), and (without any proof one way or the other) are convinced that homosexuality is not inbuilt.

(2) People who have grown up with others around them who have come from perfectly happy well adjusted families who have always been "different" in the sense that they always seemed gay, and in the fullness of time turned out to be just so. They appear to have had no choice in it. God either made them that way, or stood aside for Satan to pervert (in your view) some but not most of them.

This highlights my difficulty with the religious view. Lorient, you believe in a God without proof - which is Faith, and acceptable in my view, because I can't disprove God - and then you hand out a pack of opinions (doctrines, if you like) and subscribe them to this immaterial being. In your case, you add fanciful Angel-folk, but that does not make your inherent view any more (or less) absurd.

by Lorient Avandi Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:58 am

Ok, so you believe every being on Earth, human or animal, is here by complete coincidence. There were random bits and particles, that for no reason whatsoever, all came together for no reason to create one single planet that is just perfect enought to support life, let alone intelligent life, with all the resources needed to evolve and create a civilization of primates. The primates, supposedly "evolved" from pre-historic monkeys, are just perfect enought to create these great technologies and gain the ability to travel across the planet, even away from the planet.

And if there is a God, which there is (it seems just s little more likely than compleye coincidence), he creates all these people, who are modeled after him. He wouldn't mix up and put a male spirit into a female body, or vice versa.

by Eldorion Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:29 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:Orwell- it was when it was made. The Law of Moses was only used until Christ came to Earth, after which it was not needed

Matthew 5 (KJV) wrote:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

by Eldorion Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:36 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:It is a common belief that they all use. something may have happened to then when they were young that they couldnt necassarily tell or remember is why they became gay. If humans are are designed with the desire to procreate, why would they become gay naturally?

We've been over this before, Lorient. Smile

What about all the people who somehow "turn gay"? We're they gay all along? Even when they were with a member of the opposite sex?

Just because someone was in a relationship with a person of the opposite sex and later came out as gay does not mean that they "turned gay". It means that they were repressing their sexuality and their identity for any number of reasons. Often these reasons have to do with intense pressure and sometimes even threats from their families and communities.

by Eldorion Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:52 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:Ok, so you believe every being on Earth, human or animal, is here by complete coincidence. There were random bits and particles, that for no reason whatsoever, all came together for no reason to create one single planet that is just perfect enought to support life, let alone intelligent life, with all the resources needed to evolve and create a civilization of primates. The primates, supposedly "evolved" from pre-historic monkeys, are just perfect enought to create these great technologies and gain the ability to travel across the planet, even away from the planet.

Oh my, where do we even begin here? Laughing

First of all, whatever made you think that the Earth is perfect for life, humans, or anything else? The idea of perfection is largely a religious one, yet you try to assign it to a secular worldview. No one is saying that the universe is perfect (except you, by implication, since it was made by God).

But yes, naturally, the Earth is good enough for life. This did not happen "for no reason", but because of a large number of natural processes. While the mechanics of planet formation (much less the specific origins of life) are not fully understood, there are a number of intelligent hypotheses and a lot of quite interesting research done on the matter. It is, in any event, a far more sophisticated opinion than "God did it", which gives no details or mechanics whatsoever.

Do you find it unlikely that a planet could support habitable life? Perhaps it is. We're not aware of any other such planets, true, but the planets we know anything about are all so close to us and the number so small as to be a tiny drop in the great bucket of the universe. On the other hand, NASA estimates that our Sun is one of 100 billion planets in our galaxy, which is itself just one of another 100 billion galaxies in the known universe. Even if the odds of a solar system having a planet which happens to be solid, warm, have water and actually support life are a trillion to one, there would still be 10 billion Earth-like, inhabited planets in the universe. And recent research suggests that the odds are actually much better than that.

With mind-bogglingly huge numbers like that, the existence of intelligent life seems neither coincidental nor extraordinary, but simply inevitable given the number and diversity of planets out there. study

by **Orwell** Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:12 am

I wonder, who made transexuals, Satan or God?

by Ringdrotten Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:55 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Lorient Avandi wrote:Orwell- it was when it was made. The Law of Moses was only used until Christ came to Earth, after which it was not needed

Matthew 5 (KJV) wrote:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Your knowledge continues to surprise (and in this case, amuse Laughing

) me.

by Eldorion Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:58 pm

Aw, thanks, Ringo. Very Happy

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:40 am

Eldorion wrote:
Lorient Avandi wrote:Orwell- it was when it was made. The Law of Moses was only used until Christ came to Earth, after which it was not needed

Matthew 5 (KJV) wrote:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Again, it was not needed after his death. As the reference states, he came to fulfill the law, which he did.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:44 am

But that also says Lorient, 'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law'. Unless it happened and no one noticed, as far as I can tell earth at least is still here, so the Law still applies surely?

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:48 am

I vote that we create a new thread to post religious or anti-religious things. All of what we are saying we have pretty much said before. We pretty much know everyone's standpoint on the homosexuality subject..

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:49 am

I'll start a religous debates/questions thread Lorient.

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:51 am

Mathew 5 chap overview:
Jesus preaches the Sermon on the Mount—Its teachings replace and transcend some aspects of the law of Moses—All are commanded to be perfect like their Father in Heaven. (New Testament, Matthew, Chapter 5)

Replace and transcend

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:53 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I'll start a religous debates/questions thread Lorient.

Thanks Petty Very Happy

by Eldorion Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:17 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:Mathew 5 chap overview:
Jesus preaches the Sermon on the Mount—Its teachings replace and transcend some aspects of the law of Moses—All are commanded to be perfect like their Father in Heaven. (New Testament, Matthew, Chapter 5)

Replace and transcend

Specific citation with a verse number where it says that the Sermon on the Mount replaces and transcends the Mosaic Law?

Even if this is exactly what the Sermon says, the best-case scenario for Mormon theology is that there's a contradiction in Matthew. I say that because 5:17-19 pretty clearly states that the Mosaic Law is in effect "till heaven and Earth pass", which I assume refers to events described in Revelation.

by Eldorion Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:18 am

Also, do you guys want me to split the discussion of Matthew 5 and Mormon theology into the new religion thread, or is it good here?

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:51 am

Eldorion wrote:Also, do you guys want me to split the discussion of Matthew 5 and Mormon theology into the new religion thread, or is it good here?

Keep here, just so we don't have 2 seperate conversations going on. That got confusing here

by Eldorion Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:18 am

Sounds good to me. Also, if you could point out where in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says that he's there to replace the Mosaic Law, I'd be much obliged. It's an interesting topic to me. Out of curiosity, was the quote you gave earlier from a Mormon commentary on or introduction to the Bible? study

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:25 am

In my edition of the bible, each chapter has an introduction that just gives a brief overview of the contents of the chapter

by **Orwell** Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:39 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:Mathew 5 chap overview:
Jesus preaches the Sermon on the Mount—Its teachings replace and transcend some aspects of the law of Moses—All are commanded to be perfect like their Father in Heaven. (New Testament, Matthew, Chapter 5)

Replace and transcend

So you don't use the Old Testament then? You know, because Jesus threw it out and all. (I'm going by what Jesus said, not by how your Mormon Interpreter interpreted it).

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:16 am

What are you talking about Orwell? Neutral

The nature of the Law of Moses is that it was for people to live by until Christ came to the Earth and atoned for our sins. After that happened there was no longer a need for the Law anymore. Very Happy

by Eldorion Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:05 am

So (for the third time), if that is indeed the case, then what is the meaning of Matthew 5:17-19? Very Happy

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:18 am

Law of Moses. The name assigned to the whole collection of written laws given through Moses to the house of Israel, as a replacement of the higher law that they had failed to obey. The law of Moses consisted of many ceremonies, rituals, and symbols, to remind the people frequently of their duties and responsibilities. It included a law of carnal commandments and performances, added to the basic laws of the gospel. Faith, repentance, baptism in water, and remission of sins were part of the law, as were also the Ten Commandments. Although inferior to the fulness of the gospel, there were many provisions in the law of Moses of high ethical and moral value that were equal to the divine laws of any dispensation. The law of carnal commandments and much of the ceremonial law were fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The law functioned under the Aaronic Priesthood and was a preparatory gospel to bring its adherents to Christ. See JST Ex. 34:1–2; Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:19, 24; Eph. 2:14–16; Heb. 7:11, 18–19; 9:7–14; 2 Ne. 25:24–30; Mosiah 12:27–13:32; 3 Ne. 9:17; 15:1–8; D&C 84:23–27. (Bible Dictionary, Law of Moses)

by Eldorion Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:04 am

Um, what is that? And why should I rate it above the (supposed) Word of God, which still seems pretty unambiguous to me? Wink

by Lorient Avandi Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:12 pm

It means that Christ, as the scripture says, came to fulfill the law of Moses.