Re: Largest Tolkien Forums of 2015 (end of an era)

[Pettytyrant101]

Mmm I was thinking you would just screengrab form your dvd's or whatever you have- but barring that google fellowship of the ring screencaps and go from there.

Better if you can grab the shots yourself though- as that way you can select exactly what you want.

[Forest Shepherd]

Oh yeah those look great! I look forward to the new thread with great anticipation Figgsterarionineri!

[Eldorion]

Thanks by the way Eldo for encouraging things along here and just generally helping out. I remember there was a bit with whats-their-face, that confrontational guy a while back, where I acted rudely to him and you reprimanded me and then I thought some rude thoughts about you as well...

But that was just one of the regular bumps of contentiousness that happens between people getting to know each other, whether in person or online, and I'm happy to say that I appreciate you all the more for sticking up for politeness back then!

Thanks Forest. It's always a challenge to decide how to respond to interpersonal stuff as a mod. In the past (during my first moderating gig on another forum) I came down more on the hardass side, verging on asshole. I deliberately wanted to build a different sort of moderation culture on Forumshire but there were also times when I got fed up and regretted that. Hopefully any missteps I made weren't too serious and people have been generally satisfied with how the forum has been run the past five years.

My only other constructive thoughts as relates to the betterment of the forum are simple things like technical glitches. For example, we've all experienced (I think) the annoying bug wherein new posts will instead appear as read posts except with the thread-text the wrong colour or something along those lines.

I think I know what you mean about new posts being marked as read after a period of time even if you haven't actually viewed those threads, and unfortunately that's just a part of how phpBB works. I'm not sure what you mean about the thread text being the wrong color, though.

Otherwise I do enjoy the format of the forum. Those "click the title of the post to read the actual post in the thread" thing on ToR.N bothers me something fierce! I know there's a flat view, but having to choose it is bothersome. The addition of new sub-forums or categories would certainly shake things up here, but probably not in any meaningful or enjoyable way! I mean, it's pretty much all covered any way?

TORn has a deliberately retro style that was dated in 2002, but I find it kinda charming. Definitely not the most user-friendly though, I agree. I have always intentionally kept the number of sub-forums small because I think it's better to have activity concentrated in as small a number of forums as possible. Makes it easier to browse between threads and avoids stretching your activity too thin and making the forum appear smaller/less active than it really is. Though on the other hand, I've never felt like making the plunge to a (for example) NeoGAF style layout of most everything being lumped into just two main forums.

We have in the past created new subforums for topics that grew in importance and seemed to merit the increased prominence (specifically, the Creative Corner and The Big Bad Serious Forum), but I'm not sure if there are any other subjects that would benefit from that right now, though I'm always open to suggestions and input.

I know that websites like reddit are so popular because of their click-inducing psychologically-rewarding glowy-orange inbox-thingy counts that shows how many unread responses you have. And those damn stupid upvotes. And their customization features.  In comparison a regular forum like this one can be a bit clunky in terms of your needing to actually remember in which category you posted a thread in order to see other people's responses to it. But then all of this comes down to meta-forum issues and website design and whatever. None of which is really in our control here, from what I've heard in previous posts from you. Something about who the website belongs to and the details of the code and so on. I really have no idea what I'm talking about and will stop now I think.  

Reddit is unusual in that it's basically a forum but it runs on code written for the link aggregator type of website it initially was (think Digg here if anyone remembers that). You can use the View My Posts tool to see just the threads you've posted in, regardless of which forum they're located in. However, most of the structure of the forum is just part of the pre-packaged phpBB suite, and would require more coding knowledge than I have to significantly change. That, and because of the way we're hosted I don't have that access, which is probably what you remember me mentioning in the past.

I don't know. Forums are fun and creative places in which to complain about things and enjoy each other. As long as the newcomers aren't too put off by all the weird things we talk about, I'm sure we'll continue to get more of them. If newcomers are something we are interested in, perhaps it would be wise to utilize the far-reaching mass-marketing tools of modern social media. As it is though, I kind of like the coziness. (Although it would be nice to have more people interested in talking about D&D now and then!   )

I certainly enjoy the coziness as well, but it's always nice to have new people join too (though I don't envy TORn having the sorts of sizes of newbie waves that they experienced around each of the film releases). Based on the experiences of people I know I'm unsure how effective social media marketing really is in the majority of cases, but if someone wanted to try running that I wouldn't be averse to the idea. Unfortunately it's not something I'm really up to starting at the moment due to some IRL problems I have going on.

Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful response, Forest!

[Eldorion]

Good job on your research and analysis for this ongoing project Eldo. Sad there won't be anymore with no major announcements on the horizon, (cue sappy music) but the community you've cultivated and grown here is priceless.

Thanks bungo, that means a lot to me. I do feel proud of this place (in fact it's one of the very few things I'm able to take pride in a lot of the time ) and I'm glad it means as much to others as it does to me. I am trying to scale back my involvement a bit but you have no idea what it means to me that you feel that you'll miss the numbers project, which is probably the wonkiest and most self-serving thing I ever posted here.

[halfwise]

Eldo, it's sort of like you've launched a child into the world. I may be wrong, but I would guess admin work is only needed about once a month now that the forum is fully developed and the movies are all done. The mods can handle small fires.

So you can go off and be proud of what you've done, checking back occasionally until the next time the kids show up on your door with a sack full of laundry. And what you've done has been amazing.

[Eldorion]

That means a lot Halfy, thanks. You're right that the forum mostly runs itself these days; it has definitely "matured" and is in a rather calm period post-movies. I like the child analogy.

[malickfan]

You're right that the forum mostly runs itself these days; it has definitely "matured" and is in a rather calm period post-movies.  I like the child analogy.

I'd agree with that, but I'm not quite sure 'matured' would be the right word for it, some of the stuff we get up to here is anything but mature

I have at times been so caught up in all the "end of an era" stuff that I forget how likely it is that WB will try to keep the money train rolling on. Razz It'll definitely be interesting to see.

I'm a cynical bugger by nature so I haven't doubted for one second WB will do something else as soon as they can, Jackson and TORn staff members have dropped vague hints over the last year or so, but that could just be a tease to keep the fans talking...

[Eldorion]

Both of those are good points, Malick.

[Elthir]

Waitamminit. Someone's running this forum? I thought it was like a train with no conductor... but at least there were tracks!  

Well... this changes everything!



But seriously, thanks and "great job!" to the conductor, whoever you are the name "Eldo" is being passed around, but I'm not being hasty. I've been fooled before!

I know there have been some grey days, and some horsing around, but you kindly looked the other way which normally isn't good for train drivers, just in case there's another one in front of you, but here it worked.

And since I know absolutely nothing about computers or how much work it takes to run a website with chat forums, I can't really heap a lot of praise on you... just in case it's too much.

I mean for all I know it's easy work and you've made millions in emoticon sales

drat, there goes another 5 pennies

[Eldorion]

Thanks Elthir.

{{{That's another quarter!}}}

No really, you guys, I'm not sure how to put this into words, but it's just a really nice feeling, all this appreciation, especially with where I've been lately psychologically.

[Elthir]

As you know Eldo, I post or ghost at a number of Tolkien websites... many are fun and this one is fun with a unique atmosphere that... well... seems to inspire silliness and humour, which is generally good in my opinion (in tandem with more serious chat too of course)... and although websites and computers really are a mystery to me, I actually guess it takes a lot of time and hard work.

I just wanted to add a less silly thanks

[Eldorion]

[Tinuviel]

I'd like to add to the Eldo praise!

First off, a queen such as myself could never hope to rule a kingdom without an admin such as yourself, especially when I'm seldom here and more importantly a buckie loving, powerless figure head.

Second, being a person pretty close in age to you, I am and always have been in awe of how intelligent and organized you are, particularly in this part of our lives where time is never available and expectations for the future are constantly looming overhead. You are incredibly mature and fair and dedicated and that will get you far in life no matter what you do. We grew up with this forum (and the old one!) but you can't stay in Neverland forever.

You're a really great human being so remember that whenever you're feeling down.

[halfwise]

A decoration from our Queen!  

(now where's that bucky report?)

[azriel]

I agree with Tinuviel, I may only have been here a couple of years & You guys know Eldo better than I but, that doesnt make any difference ! Eldo IS a great person.I can remember times when he's had to pour oil on troubled waters & its easy to forget Eldo is a young man. Im much older than Eldo but, Im not that mature, Gawd, if I get ticked off by someone my gob over rides what little brains I have. So actually Eldo you have helped me see things more respectively. My temper certainly has calmed down a lot. "Do as I do,NOT, do as I say " ...
{{{ I bet hes a shit behind the scenes ! }}}

[Eldorion]

Thanks, ladies.

[Bluebottle]

Sorry to hear things aren't going that great, Eldo. Still, it's always good to consider..

[Bluebottle]

Also I'd like to add my voice to the others.

You've always struck me as a nice person.

But then, I've always liked you.. So, my opinion might be clouded..

[Eldorion]

Thanks Blue. That scene hadn't been on my mind lately but it's definitely very apt. Seeing it made me smile just now too.

[Bluebottle]

Yeah, I often think of that scene. There's certainly a lot of comfort in it, certainly. (And, hey. It might even be true. )

[Amarië]

Of course it's true! Iroh said so.

[Bluebottle]

[Eldorion]

So I know I said that I wasn't going to continue with this project, and indeed I didn't touch it for several months, but curiosity got the better of me so I have been checking in on a handful of the larger forums this year so far. There's no real surprises there, so I figured I'd post some of my research into the earlier days of Tolkien forums. I did a lot of work on this a year or two ago but there was some guesswork involved; see the disclaimer below.

As I mentioned in the OP, Tolkien discussion in the 1990s was primarily found in Usenet. The PJ movies were known through rumors in the late '90s and in 1999 there was a flurry of announcements, including casting, as well as the beginning of principal photography. As a result, a bunch of forums were started in that year and kicked off the next era of online Tolkien discussion. (This is also around the same time that the Tolkien fanfiction community started to grow on LiveJournal and through dedicated archives, but that's a story for another time.)

I've posted my annual rankings of forums for the past several years, but there are two different ways one can compare forums across multiple years. One is to simply compare the size of their total archives. This is the easier path initially, but you run into problems with forums that have moved or reset (as we did in 2011, and TORn in 2007, and Arwen Undomiel in 2005). More importantly, this approach is skewed towards forums that flourished in periods when the fandom as a whole was more active. This isn't necessarily a problem, but it raises the question of whether racking up lots of posts in a period where mid-level forums can do so is more impressive than having fewer posts but ranking higher in a period where everyone has to fight to stay above water.

In any event, I prefer the alternative approach of comparing forums based on how often they are among the most successful in any given year. I've arranged the results in a medal table like they do with sporting events. Sports is not a great analogy (there's much less turnover from year to year at the top of the forum charts then there is in most leagues) but I find it serviceable. There is room for quibbling over the presentation of medal tables (does winning one gold mean you should rank higher than someone who won five silvers?) but that's not currently a big problem since weighting the medals doesn't change the results much.

Anyway...

Disclaimer: do not take these rankings as gospel!

I have used hard numbers as much as possible, but it gets really hard to say anything with certainty before ~2010. In some cases the differences between forums are too close to make a definite call and I went with what seemed likeliest. The earliest years (1999-2001) are largely speculative. The figures for 2016 only cover the first half of the year, obviously. (EDIT 12/16/2016: the year-end Top 4 ended up being the same as it was at the mid-year mark.)

(Click image for full, non-compressed size)


Links to the ranking forums (or Archive.org if they're no longer online):
Plaza, TORC, TORn, Arwen Undomiel, Forumshire, Imladris, Ringbearer, Entmoot, War of the Ring, Barrow-downs, board77, Council of Elrond, Hall of Fire

If you're interested in how the forums stack up based on archive size, here's a list as of about a month ago (15 May 2016, to be precise) when I last updated it. Please note that it is far from complete, mainly when it comes to older sites, of which there were many (possibly dozens) that probably would have reached the 100K cut-off I set but that are offline and that I didn't find through Archive.org. Also note that it does not include earlier versions of forums that have been relaunched.

• LOTR Plaza: ~6257K¹
  
• TheOneRing.com: ~3158K
  
• Arwen-Undomiel: ~1123K
  
• TheOneRing.net: ~877K
  
• The LOTR Movie Site: ~1150K²
  
• War of the Ring: ~662K³
  
• Barrow-Downs: ~632K
  
• Minas Tirith: ~628K
  
• Entmoot: ~582K
  
• Council-of-Elrond: ~574K⁴
  
• Ringbearer.org: ~550K⁵
  
• Council of Elrond: ~286K⁶
  
• board77: ~382K
  
• The Tolkien Forum: ~371K
  
• LOTR Guide: ~319K
  
• The Hall of Fire: ~310K
  
• The Land of Rohan: ~225K⁷
  
• Forumshire: ~196K
  
• Planet Tolkien: ~195K
  
• LOTR Fan MB: ~133K
  
• Age of the Ring: ~112K⁸
  
• Gap of Rohan: ~106K⁹
  

Notes:
1. Includes now-archived posts (still publicly accessible).
2. If you look at Archive.org there's a weird jump of several hundred thousand posts in 2007 when the forum software changed. My best guess is that it started taking into account deleted posts. Actually somewhere under 800K posts.
3. Offline; figure from Feb or Mar 2014.
4. Offline; figure from Feb or Mar 2014. Not to be confused with the similarly named but hyphen-less "Council of Elrond".
5. Offline.
6. The nominal post total for CoE is really inconsistent and it periodically appears to shrink, though there is still activity there. My best guess is that they actually have somewhere over 400K posts.
7. I excluded Land of Rohan from the last annual activity project because its nominal post total had become many times higher than the number of new posts visible in the forum. Not sure what a more accurate figure would be, though.
8. This forum (but not the entire site) is offline; figure is from October 2015.
9. This figure is from 2013. The forum was inaccessible for several years and only recently came back online. Manually adding up the posts in each subforum was too much of a pain in the ass for too low-ranking a site.

[azriel]

Gawd, you've been a busy bunny I find it interesting how things are jogging along especially as all the Hoo-Ha has died down from that abomination "The Hobbit". Well done for keeping this going

[Eldorion]

Thanks azriel. Most of the "historical" data I gathered and sifted through a while back, but as we approach the mid-point of the year I was updating things and thought it'd be fun to share some more of it on here.