continuing proofs America is wacko [3]

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:11 pm

Americans often seem to take personal safety as a group responsibility- Halfwise

Why dont you have a national health service then free at the point of use to all equally?

It is true that we tend to take the view you cant stop someone doing something stupid if they are really determined to do it- thats up to them, its their responsibility. It is their judgement to make. That is personal freedom.
But when they end up half dead in a hospital from their stupidity the rest of us are happy and willing to chip in to pay to make them better if we can, or to at least allow them to die free of pain.

As to para-gliders, well like Americans, anyone who hurtles themselves off a high cliff strapped to what appears to be a big kite, well lets just say they too have personal freedom, and some might say, also need a dose of common sense. Sofa

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Post by bungobaggins Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:23 pm

http://fox6now.com/2015/04/12/breaking-driver-shot-killed-teen-injured-after-two-year-old-child-hit-by-car/

Here's that story Petty was talking about.

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Post by bungobaggins Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:25 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Americans often seem to take personal safety as a group responsibility- Halfwise

Why dont you have a national health service then free at the point of use to all equally?

Because Americans don't give a shit about each other, especially when their own money is involved. It's everyone for themselves. Fuck the poor. There's a feigned, frosting of courtesy in our daily interactions, but people here really don't give a fuck about anyone else.

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Post by David H Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:14 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I ha a look at the US news headlines this morning- and saw the tragic story of the guy who hit the toddler with his van, when the kid ran out onto the road, and then someone shot the driver in the head, and a seemingly random teenager.
Then I went on a bit later and saw that you let Americans, whose cars are designed to go steadily and reliable in a straight line for long distances, go on a race track with corners, in a twitchy if you don't know what your doing and aren't used to it sort of way, lamborgini, to drive round as fast as they liked, so long as they were willing pay enough bucks- with the likely result they end up dead.
And then I go on a short while ago and read someone has been shot dead at a campus library.

You know sometimes I think what your country really, really needs, is a large does of common sense. Nod

I don't know, Petty. It used to sound like you got your image of Americans from FOX. Now it sounds like you're getting it from Grand Theft Auto. Suspect

I'm not sure what your point is about the cars. There's a track about 2 hrs from here with a driving school. You can take a one-day intensive driving course in Chevy's that have been set up and tuned for rally racing. (Rally racing is pretty big around here with the hundreds of miles of mountainous logging roads.) Then once you've passed the class you can rent a Lotus by the hour and play. It all seems pretty safe and sane compared to the stuff we see on Top Gear! Razz

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Post by David H Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:18 am

bungobaggins wrote:
Because Americans don't give a shit about each other, especially when their own money is involved. It's everyone for themselves. Fuck the poor. There's a feigned, frosting of courtesy in our daily interactions, but people here really don't give a fuck about anyone else.

Out of curiosity, what part of the country do you call home, Bungo?

It's different in my little NW corner. We're more of the "Fuck the Rich" school of thought. Wink

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Post by bungobaggins Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:57 am

I live in The Great State of Minnesota. I love this state, but it's the home of passive-aggressiveness and Michele Bachmann.

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Post by David H Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:02 am

Ah! Say no more. My ex's family was from MN. As you say, a great state, but....ehem....jessy ventura Rolling Eyes

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Post by bungobaggins Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:21 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/04/17/state-seizes-11-year-old-arrests-his-mother-after-he-defends-medical-marijuana-during-a-school-presentation/?tid=trending_strip_6

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Post by halfwise Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:27 am

The reason this isn't in the religious debates thread is because, well....this could only happen in america.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/04/creationism_in_louisiana_public_school_science_classes_school_boards_and.1.html

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Post by bungobaggins Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:48 am

Roark’s science tests included a fill-in-the-blank question that said, “ISN'T IT AMAZING WHAT THE _____________ HAS MADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” and students were expected to write in “LORD.”

:facepalm:

This is bordering on terrifying. What is it about the south and these red states? Is it something in the water? Seriously.

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Post by halfwise Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:46 am

bungobaggins wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/04/17/state-seizes-11-year-old-arrests-his-mother-after-he-defends-medical-marijuana-during-a-school-presentation/?tid=trending_strip_6

Let's just say, the kid is getting an education.

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Post by David H Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:58 pm

You know, as much as I grumble and rant about about the evils of global corporations and homogenizing of culture, and McDonald's in near the top of that list, I've always had a secret grudging respect for them for 3 reasons: clean public toilets, decent cheap coffee, and (amazingly) what appears to be a corporate conscience of some sort:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elliott-negin/mcdonalds-palm-oil-pledge_b_7104982.html

In the face of declining sales, McDonald's has been making a number of moves to bolster its market share -- and its reputation. Over the last few months, the world's most profitable fast food chain announced that it will stop selling chicken raised with antibiotics, raise its U.S. employees' salaries by at least $1 an hour, and bring back "third pounders" to compete head-to-head with its premium burger rivals.

But the company saved what could amount to be its most important announcement for today. It pledged to only buy food and raw materials from around the world that don't contribute to deforestation, a significant contributor to global warming. Given McDonald's reach, that's a potential game-changer.

Two other top fast food chains -- Dunkin' Brands, parent of Dunkin' Donuts and Baskin-Robbins, and Yum! Brands, owner of KFC, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell -- have made commitments to stop buying palm oil linked to deforestation. That's a big deal. Palm oil, which is used in a wide range of baked goods, packaged foods and personal care products, is the world's most popular vegetable oil, mainly because it's cheap, naturally saturated, and free of trans fat. But oil palm trees only grow in the tropics, where unscrupulous growers have been leveling forests for oil palm plantations, releasing massive amounts of carbon into the atmosphere. In Southeast Asia, where 85 percent of the plantations are located, those forests provide critical habitat for elephants, orangutans, rhinoceros and tigers.

McDonald's commitment could be an even bigger deal. The company pledged to eliminate deforestation from its entire global supply chain. Specifically, the company singled out beef, coffee, fiber-based packaging, palm oil and poultry. Like palm oil, cattle production is a major driver of deforestation.  

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Post by halfwise Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:30 pm

The best thing they can do for the planet is stop selling high volumes of cheap meat. Rolling Eyes

McDonald's has always been socially conscious, and has long had paid study sessions for employees still in school, as well as other community engagement programs. McDonald's stores were famously unburned during the Watts riots, and there's a Ferguson photo entitled "businesses burn beside McDonalds". I don't think it's the food....

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Post by David H Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:24 am

halfwise wrote: I don't think it's the food....

No, it's like I said. It's the Restrooms and the Coffee Nod

Also free wifi a place to charge your phone. What's not to love?

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Post by halfwise Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:11 am

The hell's going on in your town, Eldo?

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Post by bungobaggins Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:43 am

Yeah, hope you're far removed from those 'protesters'.

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Post by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:46 am

I'm currently living way far out in the suburbs, so I didn't even hear about this until I got off work at like 9:30.  My brother lives in the city though so he's been following this anxiously.  My mom is freaking out about his safety but I spoke with him about an hour ago and he seems to be safe.

As for the riots themselves, Ta-Nehisi Coates at The Atlantic eloquently expresses some of the same feelings I have right now.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/nonviolence-as-compliance/391640/

When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the rioters themselves.

I've seen a couple MLK quotes floating around and while I haven't been able to verify all of them to my satisfaction, I was able to with this one.  Given that MLK and Gandhi are always the go-tos for the "nonviolence at any cost" crowd, I think it's appropriate to post a quote from him, even though that practice is generally rather trite.

http://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm

So these conditions, existence of widespread poverty, slums, and of tragic conniptions in schools and other areas of life, all of these things have brought about a great deal of despair, and a great deal of desperation. A great deal of disappointment and even bitterness in the Negro communities. And today all of our cities confront huge problems. All of our cities are potentially powder kegs as a result of the continued existence of these conditions. Many in moments of anger, many in moments of deep bitterness engage in riots.

Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve. That in a real sense it is impracticable for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots, and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. And continue to affirm that there is another way.

But at the same time, it is as necessary for me to be as vigorous in condemning the conditions which cause persons to feel that they must engage in riotous activities as it is for me to condemn riots. I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention.

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Post by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:48 am

I mean, to be clear, I'm not in favor of riots.  I don't want people to be hurt, much less killed.  But that's the same reason why I think police reform is desperately needed.  The historical record is replete with examples of violence leading to social change, either on its own or in tandem with non-violent protest movements.  Even the Rodney King riots led to reform in the LAPD, incomplete as such reform might have been.  We can pretend that riots never aid in bringing attention to causes or lead to change, but it would be disingenuous to do so.  I want to understand events like this in context, and dismissing rioters and/or protesters as mindless aggressive criminals is neither accurate nor is it going to lead to a long-term solution.  But I also don't want to be an apologist for violence.  We aren't in a war situation, and the underlying problems in Baltimore are as much socioeconomic as they are about police dysfunction.  If I'm coming across as overly defensive, it's probably because my Facebook feed is full of friends and family members who are police (or close relatives) who tend to take very, uh, un-nuanced views of anti-police protests, violent or not.

(My step-mom, who is the police officer in our family, is in a late enough stage of her career and has too many health problems to be out on the street much anymore, so the issue is a little less personal to me.  But I don't want to see any police officers dead or injured either, though I know there are a few still in the hospital.  Hopefully they will recover and there won't be any deaths at all.)
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Post by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:54 am

Many thick layers of irony that an impassioned Internet essay about the plight of poor Americans is coming from the scion of a billionaire, but this was a pretty good piece.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/orioles-john-angelos-baltimore-protests-mlb

Although the political mainstream's co-option of Nelson Mandela strikes another blow against historical literacy here.  I doubt Angelos is even aware of his error, so thoroughly has the image of Mandela in popular history been purged of anything that would resemble moral complexity or cast doubt upon the narrative that political violence is always wrong.  That is, until it's being used against what we deem to be an acceptable target, which Apartheid South Africa was not, probably because they were white and anti-communist.
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Post by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:17 am

Another one of the articles getting re-posted a lot by Baltimore friends:

10,000 Strong Peacefully Protest in Downtown Baltimore, Media Only Reports The Violence & Arrest of Dozens - Black Westchester

As I said before, I'm not in the city right now, but this meshes with what I've heard from friends and family who are.
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Post by halfwise Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:23 pm

The fact that this is following so soon after Ferguson should be a wake up call. I think John Angelos nailed it when he called out business for shipping over seas instead of investing in local communities. Ironically parts of America are approaching third world conditions, while those other countries are rising, and it may soon become economically advantageous to start bringing factories home.

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Post by Bluebottle Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:43 pm

I think you make some good points, Eldo. While no one would support the use of violence and rioting as such, they are definitely a symptom of real problems. As MLK says in that quote.

"in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard."

Riots don't spring out of clear air, they happen for a reason, in the right circumstances, and the best way to prevent them is probably to deal with the reason, and circumstances. That's probably easier said than done, but I think one should still try to hold that sentiment, that ideal. Shrugging

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Post by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:42 pm

This article from Forbes makes similar points to Halfy's comment about deteriorating conditions in parts of America.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/04/28/why-baltimore-burned/

On the more hopeful side, though:

http://mic.com/articles/116702/10-images-of-the-baltimore-riots-you-won-t-be-seeing-on-tv
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Post by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:31 pm

Shepard Smith proving again that he's the best anchor on FOX, even though that's a pretty low bar.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4200528372001/shepard-smith-describes-southern-racism/

NB I think the word "thug" has been thoroughly racialized and so I'm uncomfortable with it's usage, but I don't think Shep was consciously trying to use it as a dog whistle here (unconsciously though, who knows).  I don't agree with the blanket attitude towards violent protesters/rioters, but Shep's doing more here than a lot of the media has.
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Post by Eldorion Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:17 pm

Baltimore's City Paper has been on-point.

http://www.citypaper.com/news/all-content/bcpnews-how-drunk-sports-fans-helped-spark-saturday-nights-violence-20150428,0,5472440.story

http://www.citypaper.com/blogs/the-news-hole/bcpnews-city-paper-photo-editor-jm-giordano-beaten-by-police-at-freddie-gray-protest-20150426,0,229974.story
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