Re: Fjordlandia Viking bar & kaffistove, main str. 221B, Needlehole [3]

by halfwise Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:06 pm

Eldorion wrote:
halfwise wrote:No more than cock or prick does.

What exactly is your definition of "baggage", then?

The assumption that anything must pertain to misogyny or homophobia. For example if I were to refer to someone as an asshole I don't associate that with taking it up the ass and I'm not convinced that's the origin. I'd say the origin is anything considered "dirty", which is mainly sexual (in its various forms) or scatalogical.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:08 pm

{{{ }}}}- Amarie

{{{{Bollocks! Mad

Right then (-takes deep breath rolls up kilt-) 'The fucking worlds gone to fucking cock in a feminist cunt pulled by fucking niggers, religious fucking nut jobs and brown people and pushed by slanty-eyed little yellow bastards and wide eyed white wankers and filled with shitty misogynistic piss shat out by a bunch of fucking transgender pussies.' That's got to be everyone offended now surely?!! Mad

}}}}}

by halfwise Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:11 pm

I though Brits always got their panties up in a bunch about 'bloody'. We just shrug our shoulders at it.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:19 pm

halfwise wrote:The assumption that anything must pertain to misogyny or homophobia. For example if I were to refer to someone as an asshole I don't associate that with taking it up the ass and I'm not convinced that's the origin. I'd say the origin is anything considered "dirty", which is mainly sexual (in its various forms) or scatalogical.

The origins of these words get buried very quickly. Do you think middle schoolers today have any idea that "sucker" used to mean "cocksucker"? Most of them don't know that it was ever considered an inappropriate word to begin with. I still remember my dad being appalled at a commercial during the NFL playoffs using the word "suck" in c. 2003, and me thinking that was a weird reaction. That was like 12 years ago. The usage and even meaning of words shift, but the baggage part pertains to their history and origin.

It's a lot easier to brush off the unpleasant histories of these words when you're not part of the group that was ever targeted by them, either. Louis CK touched on this famously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CmzT4OV-w0#t=1m53s

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:23 pm

{{{Does the baggage mater if its forgotten and the meaning to those who use it changed? We use lots of words today that used to mean something else, and some were considered 'bad words' but they have no longer those connotations. Language and English in particular is and never has been a static language. I don't see if you begin to purge words with 'baggage' where you stop or how far back you go in a words history looking for baggage. It seems to me a pointless thing to do.}}}

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:25 pm

I've never proposed purging words with baggage. You people have known me and how much I swear for how many years now? Laughing

I think being mindful of it is important, though, especially when a lot of these words have continued in their unsavory uses for much longer than some of us would like to admit. Like "jewing me out" of money; I never heard this phrase until a couple years ago, but it still gets used by anti-Semites. On the other hand, saying that someone "welshed" on a bet might be far enough removed from its racist origins to no longer be an issue, though I personally wouldn't say it. But I also wouldn't propose a universal ban on it or anything.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:27 pm

{{{Sorry Eldo- did not mean to imply you were proposing any such thing- was just musing on the notion given there seems to be a thing in the US at the moment for getting rid of things with baggage- like the confederate flag ect. You just got be wondering out loud really drunken

}}}

by halfwise Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:29 pm

I've had a similar experience with an elder being outraged at the word "suck". But I'm with Petty here; once a word's meaning has mutated, it is no longer the same word. The baggage is lost.

And yet I still claim that most "dirty" words were originally just that: associated with bodily functions considered dirty, much of which was heterosexual sex and elimination. I don't think it's a fair claim to say all or even a majority of them come from woman or gay hating.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:30 pm

Edited in a few additional comments because I'm especially bad with getting all of my thoughts out before hitting the post button today. Rolling Eyes

I think I get where you're coming from, Petty. Most of the debate on the Confederate flag was about its display on public, government buildings though, which I think is an entirely different topic from the idea of banning the flag outright. Not trying to put words into your mouth just wanted to hopefully make my perspective clear.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:31 pm

Simulpost with halfy.

I didn't claim that all English swear words came from misogyny and homophobia, and I would agree that words like "fuck" in the generic are simply "dirty" words without being targeted at a specific group. Haven't put the thought in to try to say what categories of words are more common, though I personally have been surprised at the number of words I've learned have skeevy origins. I used to say "what a gyp" for the longest time and that kinda bothers me now, even I'd never thought about its origin.

Nowadays you get people my age and younger claiming that "faggot" and "nigger" are no longer slurs and that they're just a way of saying you don't like someone, but even though that is sometimes how they're used, I strongly disagree that their meaning has shifted that much.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:37 pm

{{{{Fair point on the confederate flag Eldo- but I was kind of using it as an umbrella for a lot of different silly things I've seen recently with statues, crosses and all sorts trying to be banned/removed by one offended group or another. Always hard to tell when getting a countries news from a distance how to put it all in proper perspective, especially with a country of your size}}}

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:40 pm

Yeah, it can be hard to know how prevalent stuff is, especially when the media is happy to jump on a dozen tweets from some randos and write thinkpieces about the implications of these "widespread" views. There has certainly been a slow-moving debate over the concept of free speech and safe spaces and whatnot recently, largely focused on college campuses (mainly small, very expensive, mostly white and Asian schools), but that didn't get really widespread until after I graduated and that wasn't the kind of school I went to anyway so there's a limit to how much I can comment on it.

As I mentioned above I think mindfulness is really important, but I've always leaned more to the civil libertarian side of things when it comes to actual rules and prohibitions.

by halfwise Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:43 pm

But my argument was with what appeared to be a general statement. Since you seem to be de-generalizing it I no longer have an argument.

As for baggage - the test is whether the words still bring up the connotations. Faggot still does; nigger depends on whether you are part of the right group or not, and changes dramatically even within the group. I think it would be interesting to see which words have such pointed origins.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:46 pm

My initial statement was that "so many" English language slurs have such origins. Don't see a big difference between that and (paraphrasing) a lot, but I don't know if it's a majority. Shrugging

by halfwise Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:51 pm

I think seeing the word 'most' with respect to Norwegian put against 'so many' for English, I read 'so many' as 'most'.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:53 pm

by Eldorion Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:36 pm

Norc asked me to make sure everyone on the forum knows she's still alive, but she just posted yesterday so I'm pretty sure she's already drunk. Razz

Also she said I'm an honorary Norwegian but we'll see if that still holds true tomorrow. Very Happy

Fjordlandia Viking bar & kaffistove, main str. 221B, Needlehole [3] - Page 21 7n2Dx5Yl

by **Amarië** Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:16 pm

by halfwise Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:52 pm

That's pretty damn funny.

by David H Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:52 am

I'm late to the sweary thread. Having especially limited internet access recently.

I just want to add that within farm culture, as far as I know most sexual and scatological name-calling expands to farm animal references rather than misogyny and homophobia. Each animal's shit, ass and dick carries a very specific implication. For example, bullshit is never confused with chickenshit, and sucking horsecock has a different implication than sucking donkeydick. The fact that bullshit and chickenshit pass the spellcheck test tells me that this bit of farm culture still persists. Which makes me happy. How about horseshit? yep! cowshit? nope. pigshit? nope. gooseshit? nope? dogshit? nope. ratshit? nope. Yet they're all perfectly good words in the right situation.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:54 pm

I know that "bullshit" means that something is untrue, and "chickenshit" means coward, but I'm not familiar with the subtle meanings of the other variations, even though I hear them occasionally. "Horseshit" seems to be used similarly to "bullshit" in my experience, while "dogshit" I've only heard a couple times so I can't really say. Same with the various animal cock words. study

by David H Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:18 pm

Eldorion wrote:I know that "bullshit" means that something is untrue, and "chickenshit" means coward, but I'm not familiar with the subtle meanings of the other variations, even though I hear them occasionally. "Horseshit" seems to be used similarly to "bullshit" in my experience, while "dogshit" I've only heard a couple times so I can't really say. Same with the various animal cock words.

I missed this.

In general usage around here, chickenshit can mean coward, but it's often broader than that, implying no moral standing whatsoever. Bullshit on the other hand implies the intention to deceive, whereas horseshit usually does not. In the case of an artistic lie, bullshit can be a high compliment, but horseshit can't. To give examples, a bullshit excuse might be carefully crafted deception (or not), a horseshit excuse would have less craftsmanship and probably be easily seen through, and a chickenshit excuse would debase the person for even uttering it.

Dogshit and pigshit are usually reserved for nasty problems you'd rather not touch, often said of public figures, but "stepping in dogshit" is obviously more manageable than "wallowing in pigshit".

Horsecocks are larger and harder to swallow. Donkeydicks are more...um...active.

The list of farm analogies goes on and on, and can be truly eyeopening and almost poetic when used by a master. cheers

by David H Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:23 pm

Reuters wrote:Edward Snowden will take the Norwegian state to court in a bid to secure free passage there, a Norwegian law firm representing the former U.S. spy contractor said on Thursday.

Snowden has been invited to Norway to receive a freedom of speech award from the local branch of writers' group PEN International, but is worried that he would be handed over to the United States, his lawyers say.

"The purpose is to get legally established that Norway has no right to extradite Snowden to the U.S.," the law firm, Schjoedt, said in a statement.

"U.S. authorities have already asked that Snowden will be extradited to the U.S. if he was to arrive in Norway," Hallvard Helle, the lawyer representing Snowden, told Reuters.

"It is a case they (the Norwegian authorities) have not wished to comment on previously, so therefore we want a legal clarification of this," Helle said, when asked whether Norway had said it would extradite Snowden if he entered the country.

The Norwegian justice ministry said: "The ministry does not wish to comment on a case that potentially will be handled and decided by the court."

Norway, a member of the NATO military alliance, has very close diplomatic ties with the United States, but the judiciary can defy the government.

A court ruled on Wednesday that Norway had violated the human rights of mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik by keeping him in isolation since he was sentenced in 2012 for killing 77 people..

Snowden, whose supporters say he boldly exposed government infringements of privacy, fled the United States in May 2013 and now lives in Russia where he was granted asylum. The U.S. government filed espionage charges against him for leaking intelligence information.

Snowden is among the top tips for this year's Nobel Peace Prize, an award picked by a Norwegian committee and awarded in Oslo.

Norway and Russia share a border making it possible to travel by land.

I hope they send a car for him. The bus service in Finnmark sucks donkeydicks!

by Eldorion Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:32 pm

Thanks for the information, Dave. Very Happy

Hope that Snowden is able to go to Oslo if he wants to.

by Norc Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:52 am

We only use snow-mobiles in Finnmark duh...