Oh what could have been...

Its no secret that most of us here are disappointed with how the Hobbit films have turned out. I know there are tons of things I hate and admittedly some things I like about the films. (Thorin's late arrival being one) What I'm curious about are what are the scenes that if given the opportunity to change them to the original version. Which is the main scene you would make like the book/ source material.

My main thing I would change, is the battle of Azanûlbizar and Azog's inclusion in the films. Substituting Bolg as Thorin's nemesis. and general of the forces against the dwarfs at the BO5A. including Dain and his speech to Thror. Showing that the war between the Goblins/Orcs was more than just one battle, hinting at the 3 years, 2770-2773, it took to get the dwarfs united, and the other 6 years of the actual war (2773 - 2779). I mean really this is Oscar worthy stuff here from Tolkien that Jackson completely dropped the ball on.

When Thror came to Moria the Gate was open. Nar begged him to beware, but he took no heed of him, and walked proudly in as an heir that returns. But he did not come back. Nar stayed nearby for many days in hiding. One day he heard a loud shout and the blare of a horn, and a body was flung out on the steps. Fearing that it was Thror, he began to creep near, but there came a voice from within the gate:
‘Come on, beardling! We can see you. But there is no need to
be afraid today. We need you as a messenger.’
Then Nar came up, and found that it was indeed the body of Thror, but the head was severed and lay face downwards. As he knelt there, he heard orc-laughter in the shadows, and the voice said:
‘If beggars will not wait at the door, but sneak in to try thieving, that is what we do to them. If any of your people poke their foul beards in here again, they will fare the same. Go and tell them so! But if his family wish to know who is now king here, the name is written on his face. I wrote it! I killed him! I am the master!’
Then Nar turned the head and saw branded on the brow in dwarf-runes so that he could read it the name AZOG. That name was branded in his heart and in the hearts of all the Dwarves afterwards. Na´r stooped to take the head, but the voice of Azog said:‘Drop it! Be off ! Here’s your fee, beggar-beard.’ A small bag struck him. It held a few coins of little worth. Weeping, Nar fled down the Silverlode; but he looked back once and saw that Orcs had come from the gate and were hacking up the body and flinging the pieces to the black crows.

Such was the tale that Nar brought back to Thrain; and when he had wept and torn his beard he fell silent. Seven days he sat and said no word. Then he stood up and said: ‘This cannot be borne!’ That was the beginning of the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs, which was long and deadly, and fought for the most part in deep places beneath the earth.

Then Nain stood before the gate and cried with a great voice: 'Azog! If you are in, come out! Or is the play in the valley to rough?' Thereupon Azog came forth, and he was a great Orc with a huge ironclad head, and yet agile and strong.With him came many like him,the fighters of his guard,and as they engaged Nain's company he turned to Nain and said:
'What? Yet another beggar at my doors? Must I brand you too?' With that he rushed at Nain and they fought. But Nain was half blind with rage, and also very weary with battle, whereas Azog was fresh and fell and full of guile. Soon Nain made a great stroke with all his strength that remained but Azog darted aside and kicked Nain's leg, so that the mattock splintered on the stone where he had stood, but Nain stumbled forward.Then Azog with a swift swing hewed his neck. His mail-collar withstood the edge, but so heavy was the blow that Nain's neck was broken and he fell.

Up the steps after him leaped a dwarf with a red axe. It was Dain Ironfoot, Nain's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog, and there he slew him, and hewed off his head. That was held a great feat, for Dain was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the dwarfs. But long life and many battles lay before him,until old but unbowed he fell at last in the war of the ring. Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the gate he looked grey in the face, as one who had felt great fear.

When at last the battle was won the Dwarves that were left gathered in Azanulbizar. They took the head of Azog and thrust into its mouth the purse of small money, and then they set it on a stake. But no feast nor song was there that night; for their dead were beyond the count of grief. Barely half of their number, it is said, could still stand or had hope of
healing.
None the less in the morning Thrain stood before them. He had one eye blinded beyond cure, and he was halt with a leg-wound; but he said: ‘Good! We have the victory. Khazad-dum is ours!’
But they answered: ‘Durin’s Heir you may be, but even with
one eye you should see clearer. We fought this war for vengeance, and vengeance we have taken. But it is not sweet. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it.’
And those who were not of Durin’s Folk said also: ‘Khazadduˆm was not our Fathers’ house. What is it to us, unless a hope of treasure? But now, if we must go without the rewards and the weregilds that are owed to us, the sooner we return to our own lands the better pleased we shall be.’
Then Thrain turned to Dain, and said: ‘But surely my own kin will not desert me?’ ‘No,’ said Dain. ‘You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin’s Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin’s Folk walk again in Moria.’

I mean that is classic. The action brutal and meaning, Dain's involvement meaningful and he doesn't look like an ass who refuses to help but yet shows up because the dragon is dead and he can share in the riches. It also hints at the Balrog, Durin's Bane, mentions Moria to tie into LOTR, So much that would have been better had they kept the original text intact and substituted Bolg for Azog. I know Petty would do a complete rewrite of the WHOLE script But what scene do you think would have been better served, keeping it in line with what Tolkien wrote. And yeah I know we've been here before.

the scene I would change, and its the one I was most looking forward to in the film, but we never got it , is the Elven feasting lights in the forest. Its so magical and mysterious, it captured my imagination as a kid.

Whilst I dread to think how much worse/worrying the films would be if we were in charge, I'm not really familiar enough with them to comment in depth, and this will probably read like a crazy rant, there are a few things I would have changed/preferred/imagined differently If I had the money to play around with...I think, the reality is I'd probably end up firing myself and get someone better to do the job...

(This is assuming The Hobbit films came first so I'd obviously need much more backstory that needed to be explained early on, I would set in in the universe of LOTR etc, but primarily retain the fairytale vibe the book was intended to give, and leave much to the LOTR follow up to explain properly)

If it were live action I'd shoot it on film, with a greater reliance on in camera FX, and less CGI, I'm actually convinced it could still work as trilogy...just with less filler, maybe 3 135 minute films (roughly 2/3 of which covering the actual book, the rest being appendices/bookend stuff-that way it would easier to chop this stuff out, I could make more money by selling a shorter version to the purists!!) instead of 3 3 hour films...

The Talking Purse would be in, but I wouldn't have it be the cause of the Dwarves capture, rather I'd go along PJ's lines, but have Bilbo find it in the trolls hoard, as a reference for book fans-much like the way the robot owl was handled in the Clash Of The Titans remake.

That said I'd probably  do a 6 or 7 part animated mini series, I love the graphic novel, and Old fashioned hand drawn animation could do wonders for Tolkien, it would suit the fairytale vibe of the book better, and it's a hell of lot cheaper and easier to imagine fantasy works in.

I agree about the War of the Dwarves and Orcs-I'd keep Dain as the Killer of Azog and introduce him early on, BUT I wouldn't explain the war in one short flashback, I'd keep it gradually unfolding in the films, running almost in parallel with Thorin's descent into madness-making his actions more understandable with fewer cliched big hero moments, having the grim war scenes interspersed with the lighter early chapters of the book, could make things seem a bit unbalanced admittedly, but I think it would work better than simply extended every fight in the book into a random Benny Hill type chase...

I was really intrigued by PJ's claim of DOS as a story of 'Fathers and Sons' but other than Bard and Bain I didn't see much evidence (haven't seen the EE) so for me I'd ramp this up from the start-I always pictured Thorin as a 'wounded lion' not a warrior in his prime, but a furious broken down old wreck his arrogance yet underlying courtesy and false dignity, the result of long, hard years as the last ever older son of a royal line.

I'd cast Ian Mcshane as the primary Thorin and definitely go the older Thorin route of the book, it's more interesting to me, and would reinforce the long odds and sacrifice Thorin had to make. But I'd also have a younger actor playing him in framing sequences, that way we get the young hero in, but also make Older Thorin more understandable and give him more screentime-without stealing from Bilbo's own actions and dialogue in the book.

The Stone Gaints would be seen as mysterious shapes in the distance, the audience never quite sure of what they had seen, I'd be tempted to throw in a reference to  http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tarlang's_Neck


No Ringwraiths!

No Tauriel, or at least not such a modern, overly prominent 'Female Energy Perfect Women can be kick ass warriors too!' version.

Very little Legolas, as it is a reboot I'd cast an slighty older actor in the role, he'd be a slighty mysterious dude with a few lines and actions in the background, but wouldn't even have a credited voice actor.

We would see the White Council's attack on Dol Guldor (Saruman, Cirdan, Glorfindel and a normal not high on his own armpit mushrooms Radagast would feature, as a tertiary side plot, but I'd save alot of it (and more of Thorin's backstory) for a hypothetical follow up adaptation of LOTR, to be told in flashbacks in Minas Tirith/the characters introductions in LOTR the audience would then get a 'Hey, I think I saw that guy briefly in the earlier films...' moment

Talking animals, lots of them, if only to get s few more grumbles out of Thorin.

I'd be tempted to explain a little more about the swords of Gondolin and the 'Halls of Waiting' but again it it would depend on the final edit...

Bard would be an Older man in his Forties, we would get a coda or small subplot about him marrying a woman from Laketown in one of the later episodes.

I'd have a few tertiary characters in Rivendell, Laketown etc to fill out the locations a bit more, and give a bit of character to the place, but none would have character arcs, we would see the entire story usually from Bilbo (occasionally Thorin's) point of view, or rather, the way he understands and hears things-the sideplots would mainly be narrated by Bilbo or overheard in conversation with others.

I'd make sure the Dwarves looked Dwarvish! Longbeards for the Longbeards (yeah, I know that's geeky) I wouldn't actually bother trying to establish all of them as main characters, but much like PJ only have a front five or six, I'd relegate the others to background filler for comedy effect-in the book Bilbo often confuses them, and the narrator gives the impression they are badly organised bunch at the best of times, so I'd have Bilbo and the 'filler' get confused and annoyed with each other as a subtle piece of background humour, the audience would almost get annoyed at their incompetence, until they surprise us in Battle.

-At it's heart The Hobbit is quite a silly illogical book in places with a rather bipolar tone...I'd embrace this...

I'd be tempted to kill of more than three of the Dwarves, maybe one of the filler early on as a Cliff Hanger-as long as Fili and Kili die by Thorin's side that's all that really matters to me, most of the Dwarves aren't really characters in the book or film so I never got attached to them anyway.

Less of a focus on Dol Guldor, it's called The Hobbit for a reason, we should only know what we need to know about The Necromancer, again as with the Dwarves history, I'd place lesser emphasis on here and now, but a greater emphasis on scale and backstory-I really like the idea of the Quest For Erebor being decades in the planning, but I'd want things to remain a little mysterious

I'd keep in as much of the songs and riddles as Possible

Bolg would Take Azog's place chasing the company, it is a good idea to create tension and gives a break from repetitive walking scenes, but I'd introduce it much later-say when the Dwarves are already over the mountains, maybe Bolg hears of the Goblin King's death and puts two and two together and assumes it's Thorin.

I'd keep as close to the book as possible, and embrace it's episodic nature, not trying to cram in extended cliff hangers or false ringing character arcs.

Beorn's enchartment and backstory would only be hinted at.

Smaug would be smaller, red as in the book, and wouldn't be hinted to be in League with Sauron-yet, we would learn in the LOTR follow up the hows and whys.

I would use the appendices material quite alot, but keep some mysteries mysterious-this story is laying the groundwork, not ramming down plot after plot down the audiences throat, I also wouldn't make false claims or spout nonsense about Tolkien's rewrite of the hobbit being as drastic and all powerful as some seem to think...



Probably a few other things as well.

That would be terrible to watch wouldn't it!

Yeah, we've been here before (at least once a week it seems) but that was quite fun...and depressing now I realise what we got instead...

Btw Sin I love you new Avatar , I could actual picture Sir Lee doing that (how many 90 year old heavy metal/Tolkien fans are there?)

malickfan wrote:Btw Sin I love you new Avatar , I could actual picture Sir Lee doing that (how many 90 year old heavy metal/Tolkien fans are there?)

Yeah it kind of fits with what I do as a hobby which is music and I love LOTR and such So I thought it was cool. The pictures I posted of My studio in the arts and entertainment under music, you can see my LOTR trilogy poster that I got when I attended the all day trilogy marathon at my local theater.

Sinister71 wrote:

malickfan wrote:Btw Sin I love you new Avatar , I could actual picture Sir Lee doing that (how many 90 year old heavy metal/Tolkien fans are there?)

Yeah it kind of fits with what I do as a hobby which is music and I love LOTR and such So I thought it was cool. The pictures I posted of My studio in the arts and entertainment under music, you can see my LOTR trilogy poster that I got when I attended the all day trilogy marathon at my local theater.

I have no interest in music, but I'll check out that somewhen. I saw your photo with Billy Boyd though, a couple of friends of mine are mad autograph collectors and they met him at a convention, he seems a really nice guy.

malickfan wrote:

Sinister71 wrote:

malickfan wrote:Btw Sin I love you new Avatar , I could actual picture Sir Lee doing that (how many 90 year old heavy metal/Tolkien fans are there?)

Yeah it kind of fits with what I do as a hobby which is music and I love LOTR and such So I thought it was cool. The pictures I posted of My studio in the arts and entertainment under music, you can see my LOTR trilogy poster that I got when I attended the all day trilogy marathon at my local theater.

I have no interest in music, but I'll check out that somewhen. I saw your photo with Billy Boyd though, a couple of friends of mine are mad autograph collectors and they met him at a convention, he seems a really nice guy.

Hung out with him for about 45 minutes bout the only good thing that happened to me cause of TORn but he was really cool we talked about music a lot cause he is also a musician (Beecake) but we talked about him, and about what he is doing at that time, films he was going to be in, his time in NZ, like I said really nice guy. I had his number for music networking and lost it. But I still got the pictures and the autograph

A couple more things I would have changed is:

1... Gandalf forcing Bilbo out the door with Bilbo protesting all the way. No backpack, no walking stick, nothing. No running through Hobbiton waving some contract around yelling he's going on an adventure. I would have had Balin take the contract back when Bilbo denied the offer the night before, tuck it back in his coat. Then when Bilbo catches up they could of had him sign it.I would leave the made up betting scene just cause I think its cute and it would have been even funnier knowing Gandalf forced Bilbo to come along and now he's getting paid on a bet for Bilbo coming. THAT would be good stuff that follows Tolkien's own humor.

2... The trollshaws I would have the dwarfs lose their supplies in a swollen river because of thunderstorms. they are wet tired and hungry and see a campfire in the distance. They send their burglar to investigate he gets caught trying to pinch some food for the dwarfs.Then as in the film the dwarfs all come in to rescue Bilbo. they get caught, Gandalf shows back up and tricks the trolls into getting caught in the sunlight at dawn. Using the same vocal trick they did in TTT so that Gandalf sounded like Saruman, works fine and follows the book better.

3... Bilbo wanting to carry a sword instead of Gandalf forcing it upon him. Cutting out the same speech the Gandalf gave Frodo in Moria. it's just redundant for it to be in the films again.

4... Stone giants, they would be hurling rocks and barely missing the dwarfs forcing them to seek shelter. Gone would be the amusement park ride that looks ridiculous.

5... Gollum would have went back to his island to look for his "birthday present" instead of melting down in front of Bilbo. Also when Gollum returned he would have accused Bilbo of knowing the way out, even though Bilbo would be invisible. Then Bilbo would follow him out instead of running around blindly just trying to get away from a pissed off Gollum.That would show Bilbo's cunning. There would be a back gate guarded by Goblins. That way the final trick of the ring by revealing its holder could be used and Bilbo would lose his buttons on the backdoor.

Just a couple little things that don't really change anything drastic, still action packed. But follows the source material a much closer.

I agree with Figgy about the partying elves in the forest. When I saw the soundtrack for DOS and saw "Feast of Starlight" I got really excited and bought the song! Now, whenever it comes on, I cringe internally

I would have liked to see more of Bilbo killing spiders to save the DWARVES as opposed to the ring. All of his "dark urges" seem premature and it's makes Bilbo not wear the ring as often as he should (which is another point: WHERE THE RING!)

I'd scratch the romance between Tauriel and Legolas and not keep the one with Kili so much as make a maternal one. It makes way more sense and is less used. Sure, it may not fit super well with her kick ass strong female energy (at least if we're talking about Boyen's version of it), but she'd still be a strong female balancing the fighting men with her equally fierce loving nature. That's what Arwen and Eowyn were in LOTR. Sure, they fought too, but that was to defend the ones they loved. I don't care if that's old-fashioned, it's still important to get across. Being strong doesn't mean being physical and emotionless.

The first half of DOS (more like the first third) EE is actually pretty enjoyable. That's where most of the new scenes were. I'd cut out almost all of the scenes from LakeTown involving the Master and Alfrid and Alfrid and Bard. Sure, keep everything else about Bard. Let the confrontation between him and the Master be when the dwarves are discovered. Just make Bard extremely skeptical the entire time. That makes him just as much of a social pariah in the Master's eyes as being a "rebel"

And, of course, I would demolish the dwarves vs. Smaug scene. The talk would last much longer, minus Bilbo trying to grapple the Arkenstone, and end with Bilbo and the dwarves huddling inside the mountain as Smaug lights up the mountain side. That part of the book terrified me when I read it. It's like a nightmare where you keep trying to run away only to find there is no escape. And Bilbo can keep the "what have we done" but change it to "What have I done" to therefore set up the next film in which he feels responsible for the damage himself and therefore forks over the Arkenstone.

Azog would be dead, and Bolg would have been in cahoots with the Goblin King, taking over his armies after he was slain. Still introduce him in the second movie, and sure, make him work for Sauron. I don't really care about that. But that way we still get Bolg leading the goblin army.

The Lonely Mountain. If I could include pretty much everything as it happened in the book (Bilbo's multiple forays into the dark and all), I could forgive the rest of Desolation of Smaug.
Oh yeah, here's an obvious one: split the film into two parts, not three. End Part One after the dwarves and Bilbo escape from the Elven Halls.

"Beorn's enchartment and backstory would only be hinted at." -Malickfan

WHAT BLOODY ENCHANTMENT!!?!?!

Forest Shepherd wrote:The Lonely Mountain. If I could include pretty much everything as it happened in the book (Bilbo's multiple forays into the dark and all), I could forgive the rest of Desolation of Smaug.
Oh yeah, here's an obvious one: split the film into two parts, not three. End Part One after the dwarves and Bilbo escape from the Elven Halls.

Yeah I missed the fact that he went down more than once. First time could have been no real action but still be a very tense scene not knowing if the dragon will show or not. Bilbo taking the cup back to the dwarfs, Thorin then asking about the Arkenstone. Then Bilbo can go back in and conversation with Smaug ensues. Then get rid of all that horrible nonsense of 9 dwarfs taking on Smaug and keep Smaug going out and destroying the side of the mountain as the dwarfs just barely make it into the mountain. .. Hell even have Smaug come back in searching for them and do his flying into a rage telling them he is off to destroy Laketown if it's really necessary.

I miss all the little things, the things half seen in Twilight, the shadows under the trees and the stars reflected in pools. I miss the tiny voice of the purse and the glimmer of faerie within the darkling wood. I miss the smell of leaf mould in dark dells and Gandalfs pipeweed, I miss Bilbo's shy smile and his sighs as he snuggles into woolen blankets. I miss the silence of the mountains and the bright eyes of horses. I miss the rustle of Elven gowns in the fallen leaves of Rivendell. Thats what I miss in these films. the things between the cracks.

Beautifully and accurately put Figg.

yep, Mrs Figg is spot on with the money ! Its the little things that mean a lot.

The in between the cracks things for me boiled down to the historical realism felt throughout LOTR. THAT for me was the in between stuff that the Hobbit films are lacking which makes them suffer from it. That and not knowing where the scripts or characters were going. Too much made up material was detrimental to the Hobbit films IMO...

Every change I mentioned above wouldn't have messed with Jackson's story even. I would have however kept it more in line with what Tolkien wrote. The only real change to the narrative Jackson made up would be no Azog and Dain Ironfoot presented in a positive light, so people would actually cheer when he shows up. Instead of going who the hell is that? Or making his seem like a vulture swooping in to claim something he really hasn't earned as far as the films go.

OK, here is a what if question for you, how differently do you think the films would be, if Jackson was attached as director from the start, with four years vs four months of pre production?

Sinister71 wrote:The in between the cracks things for me boiled down to the historical realism felt throughout LOTR. THAT for me was the in between stuff that the Hobbit films are lacking which makes them suffer from it. That and not knowing where the scripts or characters were going. Too much made up material was detrimental to the Hobbit films IMO...

I'd have been fine with a more heightened faery tone throughout the films (as you can probably tell from my avatar), but I do get where you are coming from, I think PJ's last minute decision to step in as director, the chaotic production , and his clearly smaller attachment to the source material all had a negative impact on the 'surface' of the film, for all the criticisms people can make about the LOTR trilogy, by and large tonal and pace issues weren't a problem (imo) the films new where they were going, and felt like epics on their own terms, The Hobbit films IMO, are awkwardly paced and climaxed with a very uneven tone, and don't have the same unified 'surface' to them, the cracks are much bigger so more has got swallowed up...

If I think of what could have ( should have ) been Im nearly sick, The thought of peejers having even more time to louse it up makes me wanna puke, pull my hair & scratch my eyes out, that do ya ? Its an abomination thats what ! There's far to much to pick out of things done different. I just dont know where to start ??

azriel wrote:If I think of what could have ( should have ) been Im nearly sick, The thought of peejers having even more time to louse it up makes me wanna puke, pull my hair & scratch my eyes out, that do ya ? Its an abomination thats what !

Maybe the eventual 'Big Box Set' with all the extra deleted scenes will make you happier

The in between the cracks things for me boiled down to the historical realism felt throughout LOTR.- Sin


I believe Sin you can have both that sense of reality in the TH and the whimsical and fairytale stuff.
You borrow the realism from LotR's and accentuate the realism present in TH book.
So from LotR's you take realistic fighting(for the most part) and real landscapes and believable environments.
And from the TH you take the cold, the hunger, the loss of possessions, and the consequences on behavior that it leads to that are present in the text. The hardships endured.
In having established the solid believable reality of the world and its real effects on people in the story, you can then have a talking purse, but now its surprising and delightful not out of place. You can have a feast of elves which disappears in the blink of an eye when you get close and reappear as if uninterrupted in the distance.
Doctor Who does this balancing act with imaginative whimsy and adult themes beneath all the time.
And just as in LotR's you can have Ringwraiths, and the Watcher in the Water, and Balrogs, and magic crystal balls, and rings that make you invisible and buy it all without question, so you can have a talking purse in TH, if the world and its rules are firmly and realistically established first.

It could have been done, if PJ had ever had faith in Tolkien.

So why didnt he have faith in Tolkien ? Cos I certainly dont believe he had faith in himself ! oh no ! He bobbed back & forth between his fantasy & Tolkiens story set up, he took a bit here, a bit there & tried to piece it together, but all it did was make a very bad soggy cake where the icing is running.

azriel wrote:So why didnt he have faith in Tolkien ? Cos I certainly dont believe he had faith in himself ! oh no ! He bobbed back & forth between his fantasy & Tolkiens story set up, he took a bit here, a bit there & tried to piece it together, but all it did was make a very bad soggy cake where the icing is running.

In fairness to PJ he was under alot of pressure by the fans and studios and was working from what 4/5 months of pre-production when he was officially announced as Director, he was bound to disappoint someone, and had a hard enough time jumping into such a big production at such a late stage.

Yes, you read that, sympathy for PJ!

its almost like its not the same PJ of LOTR, its like a Michael Bay zombie stole his body. He looks the same but theres something odd going on behind the eyes, theres a manic gleam of a techy toymaster gone apeshit.

Mrs Figg wrote:its almost like its not the same PJ of LOTR, its like a Michael Bay zombie stole his body. He looks the same but theres something odd going on behind the eyes, theres a manic gleam of a techy toymaster gone apeshit.

Ironic considering I sometimes feel I'd have preferred Braindead 2 to the Hobbit movies...