What is the meaning of life?

Shit happens, but it does because something caused it to happen. Just because we dont understand or see the chain of events doesnt mean we are not affected by them.

Your decisions are based on your experiences and your biological make up... none of which you have control of. You take that right turn after years of going left because your brain made the only choice it was ever going to make at that point.

If everything (in the universe and outside of it... or whatever else there is that impacts existence) could be fully and completely understood then the rest of existence would be entirely predictable.

Halfy - not sure I see the logic there. If you cant see that there is no air in space then does it mean you can breathe there? No... see just because we don't understand things doesnt mean we can automatically say something like that.

I don't believe in free will at all. People are made and shaped and the decisions they take are always going to happen that way. We dont get to a decision point in our lives and then forget everything we have ever learnt and suddenly become the perfect decisioning system. People like the idea of it because they don't want to admit they have no control.

My view by the way... not laid down as fact (although I am right!!!)

You've just bumped your head on one of the two great mysteries of life, Forest. It's not a coincidence that the much of human literature, from every age and in every language, is obsessed with Love and Death.

You need to find your own answers, because the questions don't go away, but don't ever let yourself feel that you're alone. Friends are good. Poetry is good. These sorts of doubts are something that connect you with Humanity, not divide you from it. I hope you find peace with them. Good luck!

I do really understand your situation Forest. I had the same kind of "problem" a couple of years back. Never have I ever been so low in my life. I were at the breaking point. And I am not proud to admit I tried to take my own life.
But I learned something wonderful, something really worth caring about. Take your time and try to talk to others about your problems. Whatever they may be. I talked a lot with my father after my almost-accident. Now I have no problem facing my fears of talking openly to others about almost everything about myself.
Hope you get better, Forest.
And I will say the same as Eldo, we are here for you. And take contact if there are anything I can help you with!
Get well!

Ermm.... seems all other posts didnt update before I wrote my last post so very likely it will seem out if place!! Was supposed to follow Halfy's post end of page 3.

Dear Forest, We all have these panic attacks, & I often wonder why I was born only to 'peg out' what seems like 5 minutes later. I still get those dark moments, usually in the middle of the night. But....... take a breath....& another....you are here, we are here, Youre not alone Spiritually we will wrap our arms around you & hug you, ok ? I dont truly believe in God, or any amount of Gods but, I respect people who DO have a firm belief. Apart from us nutters here, you maybe should get your brain engrossed in something, anything, the odder the better sometimes, something as far removed from the 'problem' that has beset you as possible. If you live near a secluded wood, having a good scream out session helps, like....... " fuck you, you bastard!, why me !" kick a tree or 2, feed the squirrels & come home,

Hi Forest - if the feeling consuming you is that life and the universe may be purely mechanical, a set of motions that we go through like everyone else; then stop and take a look at how wonderous that mechanism is. Most of the universe really is just empty space and dead rock, with the occasional glowing star of helium and hydrogen. But here on earth we have this mind boggling thing called life going, dazzling and endless in its complexity. You are part of what may be the most amazing happening in the universe. Better still, you have a mind that has at least a small chance of comprehending it.

Back when I was a young teenager, I lost my faith. It was as though the floor had dropped away below me; but at the same time, the sky opened up. The thought that there may be no meaning is actually liberating, because we, with our dazzling complexity, bring meaning to life. It's our decision to do so, to experience it however we please.

Lancebloke wrote:Shit happens, but it does because something caused it to happen. Just because we dont understand or see the chain of events doesnt mean we are not affected by them.

Your decisions are based on your experiences and your biological make up... none of which you have control of. You take that right turn after years of going left because your brain made the only choice it was ever going to make at that point.

If everything (in the universe and outside of it... or whatever else there is that impacts existence) could be fully and completely understood then the rest of existence would be entirely predictable.

Halfy - not sure I see the logic there. If you cant see that there is no air in space then does it mean you can breathe there? No... see just because we don't understand things doesnt mean we can automatically say something like that.

I don't believe in free will at all. People are made and shaped and the decisions they take are always going to happen that way. We dont get to a decision point in our lives and then forget everything we have ever learnt and suddenly become the perfect decisioning system. People like the idea of it because they don't want to admit they have no control.

My view by the way... not laid down as fact (although I am right!!!)

Lance - the point is that whether or not we actually have free will is completely irrelevant if we can't see it.  If our own minds see options and have to make decisions, then we effectively have free will, even if those decisions are laid out in stone by our biological make up forced by the physical world.  So long as we feel we have options, we have free will.

We can also take another approach: your view might collapse in the face of the inherent randomness Figgs brought up.  Let's say you based all your decisions not on your own decisions, but on flipping a coin.  Or if you don't believe that's truly random because it's a mechanical process, radioactive decay which by quantum mechanics is theoretically totally random (this point may forever be up for debate by physicists, but most accept it).  Then your path is NOT laid out for you, though whether you would call this free will or not is another question.

Halfy.... from my basic understanding of quantum mechanics (which is very basic) I thought there was also an acceptance that a lot of 'randomness' is possibly because we have a relatively basic knowledge and haven't found what causes a lot of quantum level..... stuff.

All theory though. And as I said, the fact we cannot see the causes of our actions doesn't mean there aren't any. Free will in that case is making up an answer because we don't know the full story.

Forest - something going on with my phone and its ability to work at the moment. I posted a reply to you which has disappeared.

I was basically saying that regardless of the journey that we take, either solely as a human or through an afterlife of some kind, my view is that you should always try and properly live your life. Experience everything you can, live your values and dont end up having regrets later down the line.

I don't believe in anything after this life. My aim is to try and live it as much as I can and help others to do the same along the way. I already have regrets to live with... I don't want too many more.

Thanks everyone.

hi Forest. What happened to you happens to everyone sooner or later. Its called The Fear. For one person it can happen at the age of 10 (like it did for me) or it can happen at 20 or 60, sooner or later the fucker will creep up on you and for a while life will seem like a big pile of steaming pointless poo. Don't worry as I said before, it happens to everyone, and unfailingly everyone thinks its only happening to them alone, and nobody is suffering with you. Well they are suffering with you, you are not alone, I personally had The Fear at the age of 10, the fucker snuck up on me while I was standing in line in the school playground and I was minding my own business, and was happy. I was standing there looking up in the sky, lovely blue sky and twittering birds, and as I watched a passing cloud my mind suddenly comprehended that life was finite, that one day I would be dead, nothing, and wouldn't be able to see the sky, feel the breeze on my face or hear the birds singing ever again, never, is a long time and I wondered about what they told me in church, if it was real that there was heaven, that somehow I would continue, it was all too much, my brain did something freaky, I got the mother of all panic attacks, and had a nervous breakdown, at the fucking age of 10. They sent me to a shrink. it didn't help.
anyway long story cut short, crisis of faith, existence, and all that jazz, happens sometimes, its not the end of the world and you DO get back your happiness, you DO start to feel better, maybe slowly, maybe its suddenly, just don't be too hard on yourself, let yourself self heal, give your poor brain a break and let it do its stuff to protect you. It will, its an amazing organ. Go for a walk in nature, somewhere beautiful, know that wonder does exist in the world, and joy, and unconditional love. Above all don't worry. you just had a wobble, everything is alright.

I do know one thing. Christmas brings out the crabbit in me.

so I am going to eat 20 Mon Cherie chocolates.

Yeeha to that ! Id like to shove it up someones ( anyones) arse ! Its over hyped, over priced, two faced, people pretending to give a dam, wishing complete strangers Happy Christmas when at any other time of the year, these same said people would gladly knee cap you !

Mrs Figg wrote:hi Forest. What happened to you happens to everyone sooner or later. Its called The Fear. For one person it can happen at the age of 10 (like it did for me) or it can happen at 20 or 60, sooner or later the fucker will creep up on you and for a while life will seem like a big pile of steaming pointless poo. Don't worry as I said before, it happens to everyone, and unfailingly everyone thinks its only happening to them alone, and nobody is suffering with you. Well they are suffering with you, you are not alone, I personally had The Fear at the age of 10, the fucker snuck up on me while I was standing in line in the school playground and I was minding my own business, and was happy. I was standing there looking up in the sky, lovely blue sky and twittering birds, and as I watched a passing cloud my mind suddenly comprehended that life was finite, that one day I would be dead, nothing, and wouldn't be able to see the sky, feel the breeze on my face or hear the birds singing ever again, never, is a long time and I wondered about what they told me in church, if it was real that there was heaven, that somehow I would continue, it was all too much, my brain did something freaky, I got the mother of all panic attacks, and had a nervous breakdown, at the fucking age of 10. They sent me to a shrink. it didn't help.
anyway long story cut short, crisis of faith, existence, and all that jazz, happens sometimes, its not the end of the world and you DO get back your happiness, you DO start to feel better, maybe slowly, maybe its suddenly, just don't be too hard on yourself, let yourself self heal, give your poor brain a break and let it do its stuff to protect you. It will, its an amazing organ. Go for a walk in nature, somewhere beautiful, know that wonder does exist in the world, and joy, and unconditional love. Above all don't worry. you just had a wobble, everything is alright.

Figgs.  You're one of a kind - can't help but love you.

As others have said Forest hold fast- not to beliefs, not to science not to anything but the very fact you are here at all.
That does it for me every time.
It sounds cheap and corny but really just being a thing in a univrse than can look abuot itself and go "hey! Im a thing in a universe" is pretty damn amazing in itself.
I am no stranger to what Figgs calls the Fear- though I have never been afraid of it as such, I just occasionally get overwhelmed by it.

I have no answers for you because there are none- thats why we have religion, in the hope of answers from outside ourselves and out of the need to believe there are answers.
But after spending twenty years of my life hunting the past and religion for those answers it one day occurred to me that maybe the point was not to look for answers but just to be the answer and live. Live as full and as best as I can- and when I stubble, when everything feels like its closing in on me, when the world seems too cruel and mindbogglingly uncaring to be real, I take some very deep breaths and come places like here. Where I can be reminded that the world is full of people just like me, doing their best, struggling along, and that being occasionally depressed, or scared or confused by this weird bizarre thing called life does not make you weak, or ill, or any of those things. It just means you are human.
So welcome to the human race Forest. We are very glad to have you.

Also this Who quote has often helped me since I heard it in keeping a sense of wonderous scale to my existence-

The Doctor: Hey. Do you mind if I tell you a story? One you might not have heard. All the elements in your body were forged many many millions of years ago in the heart of a faraway star that exploded and died. That explosion scattered those elements across the desolations of deep space. After so, so many millions of years, these elements came together to form new stars and new planets. And on and on it went. The elements came together and burst apart, forming shoes and ships and sealing wax and cabbages and kings. Until, eventually, they came together to make you. You are unique in the universe. And there will never be another. Getting rid of that existence isn't a sacrifice, it's a waste!

Mrs Figg wrote:everything is alright.

I need to tell myself that more often. It would probably be a pretty good mantra.

When I have problems, or when The Fear grabs me, or when I need advice, I don't have anyone to ask. I am alone with it, the problem grows inside my mind and like a fire the fear fuels the flame until everything turns to ashes. I go into churches and sit in a pew on my own, I ask for guidance and answers, I meditate, I beg for help from an invisible entity that is allegedly so powerful it can hear every soul on earth. I don't know whether it hears me, or whether its just an empty room. I have never really felt much, its all so tightly screwed down and hidden, I daren't feel, so I don't. But I recently went into a church, a minster, medieval and golden in hue. and it felt different, I felt welcomed and overcome with its beauty, I love going into it and sitting on my own and thinking about things and saying thank you for the things I do have. I don't know whether its just an empty golden hall, but it makes me happy so that's enough.

There's a grove of ancient cedars and spruce that I go to at times like that.

There's no road, only animal paths though the woods and up the hill. Sometimes it's necessary to get down on hands and knees and crawl through the bushes like a bear, but it's worth it. When I get there I'm in a different world.

The eagles nest 150 feet up in one hoary old spruce. The limbs that branch out 50 and 70 feet in the air would be giant trees in their own right. In the crotch of these limbs there are "islands in the air" with ferns and berry bushes from seeds deposited by birds over the centuries. It's hollow and the squirrels and other beasties store their cones in the trunk as there ancestors have been doing for 1000 years.

It makes me feel very, very small. It makes me understand how very short my life is in comparison to the life of this giant. But at the same time it's so full of life, lives as short in comparison to mine as mine is to the ancient tree. And none them feel insignificant.

It's a good place for thinking.

its important to find a special place to think.

Does the pub count?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Does the pub count?

YES.