FREEDOM!!!! [3]

An interesting, and unforeseen, consequence of the referendum, the YES parties are seeing large surges in membership-

'The SNP now has more than 42,000 members compared with 25,642 at 17:00 on Thursday, the party said.
The Greens also said thousands joined their party over the weekend.
Nearly 17,000 new members have joined the SNP in the last few days - taking the party's membership to over 42,000.
The SNP and Greens, as well as the pro-independence Scottish Socialist Party said they had recruited many former Labour members.
Scottish Green membership has now passed the 5,000 mark, said the party, with more than 3,000 new members signing up since voting in the referendum closed on Thursday night.'

It looks like a lot of folk still dont have any faith in the main Westminster parties.

Doesn't surprise me Petty. I really have no idea who to vote for next year. None of the main parties are trustworthy (yes, even londoners believe that) and most of the others are racist or stupid.

I picked the Tories last time for lack of a better choice.

Me neither Lance. Ive had this dilemma with Westminster elections for some time.
In the Scottish Parliament I can vote SNP, Socialist, or Independent (and the proportion representation voting means its not wasted voting for a smaller party) but I have no comparable choices at Westminster in the first past the post system.
Hell I cant even tell the difference between the three main parties at Westminster any more and Id chop my left bollock before I'd vote UKIP That doesnt leave much choice of consequence.

I cant vote for Miliband.... him and John Kerry should stick to the muppets. Cameron I think has shown his worth... and that isnt much. That other one with the yellow tie is a waste of thought processes.

BNP.... racist

UKIP... one trick pony (and I think we should be in the EU... jusy a better EU).

Green... we would never get anything done.

Who is left?

Yeah a fair summing up I'd say.

Labour always cock up the economy, have done since end of WW2 every time they've been elected.
Tories are always bastards to anyone not a Tory.
Lib Dems are just oxygen thieves.
And UKIP worry me, as they play on the worst traits of English nationalism for political capital- and thats always dangerous.
BNP not even worthy of a thought.

I'd consider voting Green for the Scottish Parliament, but it would be a waste of time at Westminster with its voting system.

And on major issues- following Americas lead in wars, finances, austerity (but only for the already poor) there is nothing between the two main parties, doesn't mater who you elect you ge tthe same sort of government and same sort of policies.

I have no idea what or who the modern Labour partys is for. But its certainly not for the poor or the working class. All their policies seem squarely aimed at the middle classes, same as the Tories.
The poor have just become someone to blame and victimise.

yeah, but the poor ARE needed, if government cant tax, screw,blackmail, abuse & extort the poor theyde have to look to the middle & high classes for dosh, NO ONE wants that in the 'perfect Tory world', & since there is so many poor, (endless supply,ad infinitum if you do it right !) the upper classes can sit cosy for all time. The trick is keeping the poor JUST under the threshold to make it worth while. NO ONE in government really wants anyone to do well & prosper, not unless they can butter the bread of the upper elite.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have no idea what or who the modern Labour partys is for. But its certainly not for the poor or the working class. All their policies seem squarely aimed at the middle classes, same as the Tories.
The poor have just become someone to blame and victimise.

I find this comment really interesting for what it suggests about the differences between UK and US politics. Here, both parties endlessly fetishize the middle class as the truest representative group of Americans and court them endlessly. But I don't think that the middle class is really conceived of in the same way. Here, with race having been the primary social dividing line, there's more of an assumption that social mobility can benefit anyone, although that's far from universally true. But the aspiration for home ownership, which is a common indicator of having achieved middle class status, is deeply ingrained in modern American culture and plenty of families have, over the course of multiple generations, successfully moved from the working class to the middle class. Organized labor is, I think, seen as a way of empowering people to make that jump, which as I understand it is very different from the way labor (both the movement and the traditional party) is seen in the UK.

I think it starts off with good intentions but, once you see the complexities of realizing the end result it almost becomes to difficult to bear. Turning a blind eye & switching off deaf ears seems to be the best way forward. Once upon a time, there were significant differences between parties ( tory & labour) now, its all merged into a large black rain cloud of "we can work together on this but" & "what can we gain between us that will benefit each of us without hurting ourselves ?" Its making voting a lot harder now than it did years ago. One side sorta sounds promising but so does the other side, only with the 1st side I might get more perks ?? To abstain from voting at all only makes things worse. People say "im not voting for so & so" & by not voting they think theyre not doing any bad, but in a way it does. Its just the choosing now is harder.

there's more of an assumption that social mobility can benefit anyone- Eldo

In my humble opinion class distinction, and the restriction on movement between classes, is one of those things America as a whole is utterly delusional about. Its just as strong in America from the figures I've read as it is here. But you have the American Dream drummed into, your told form birth its the aim and that America is where its possible. But it just not born out by the facts.

"the aspiration for home ownership, which is a common indicator of having achieved middle class status, is deeply ingrained in modern American culture"

Yes, unfortunately your delirious belief in the American Dream occasionally gets out of hand and screws the rest of us, giving the world banking crisis started in the American desire to have the American Dream and the house to prove it, despite not having the money to afford it.

John Oliver put it well- (4.53 if you just want the meat and not the potatoes)



As a side note the class issue being just as big in reality in America as anywhere else is one of the reasons I think PJ was utterly wrong to excise all the class references from LotR's. Its still very relevant everywhere in the western world.

Azriel I think part of the problem was what happened to the Unions under Thatcher.

I grew up in the 70's and 80's. My memories of the 70's are good in terms of a good childhood, but bad in terms of conditions. Strikes meant everything from the electricity to television stations might just go off without warning.
My neighbour used to have to cook meals for us because she had a gas cooker. In Winter thick ice formed on the inside of windows.
Rubbish went uncollected for months. One of my enduring childhood memories is of a massive pack of hundreds of rats pouring out of where all the rubbish was piled when it was finally moved.#
I am sure you have similar memories of the time.

The Unions were out of control and needed reform. Some utilities were better outside of national control.
But like everything Thatcher did she never knew when to stop, she was too brutal always, it wasn't enough for her to reform the Unions, she had to break them and destroy them.
And in the process she destroyed the central pillar, the ladder up for the working class to get into politics and a chance of nomination for Local Councillor or MP.

The workplace of my father and his generation was a hotbed of political debate. I remember seeing the rallies and hearing the passionate speeches made by working class people on TV as a kid.
Evey office, every shipyard, every steel mill, every coal mine had shop stewards. Political debates held at lunch time, and after work. I remember my Dad and is friends sitting in the kitchen with a bottle of whisky and some beers, talking politics, arguing politics regularly.
And because of the Union presence in the workplace if you were interested in politics you could get directly involved. If you were also bright enough and capable enough you had the means to move up the Union chain and eventually to nomination. And many did.

The workplace I entered had no politics talked about, and no interest from anyone in talking about it. It had already become to distant to even bother with.
The one time someone tried to join a union and become the union representative in the care home I was in at the time, they lasted less than two weeks before being fired.
Politics was not only ignored, it was actively avoided by the management.
And that experience is typical of the places I have worked.

The Commons of the 80's, with its many working class MP's representing many constituencies has been replaced by a Commons filled with people who went to Cambridge and Oxford, joined the political unions, rose to the top in it, became special advisers to MP's and then were nominated in safe seats and so became MP's themselves. Destined from University to become the people vying for the top jobs in the country. No one else even has a look in from the word go.
The two most powerful men in the country are the PM and the Mayor of London, whose rivalry over who would be PM goes back to their uni days.

That's the modern route into politics. The ladders of old for the working class to enter have been pulled up and burnt.

One of the good things about the Scottish referendum is that Scotland might just have rediscovered that relish for politics of the past, and decided to build a more direct means into it. The upsurge in membership to the SNP, Greens and Scottish Socialists seems to indicate the people are going to the politicians and not waiting any more.

I wonder if there has ever been a civilisation in history that didnt start off with good intentions, most probably born out of the previous going sour. Eventually (or by original design) the population come under control of the 'elite' and eventually (if external forces dont come in to play) the people have enough and all is reinvented.

I wonder if we are not too far off of major social unrest in a lot of the 'civilised' world. I think the similarities in party lines is because they know and are trying to control the issues.... I wonder how long for?

I do remember some of the 70s, I remember going up the road to my fav sweet shop in the winter & suddenly all the lights went out, I was only 9yrs old I think ? but, it scared the bejesus outa me. Its a very weird world when street lamps, traffic lights & shop lights plunge you in darkness I remember all the family huddled round my grans gas cooker, not only for a bit of light, (tho she had lamps) but for warmth to. Yes, Maggie Thatcher Milk Snatcher did go over board.

Mortals are so very selfish in the main that unselfish people are always suspect and the pack turns on them because it makes them feel weird and that is always the way it seems. There really is nothing new under the sun.
I belonged to the unions for hospital , communications, meat workers, newspaper, etc. We paid heavy dues and got nothing, really , just more in debt and behind. Oh they talked big, we rallied. took our part in all that we had to do, picketed, etc and in the end, we lost our jobs, or were forced out. The owners, sometimes the govt had long memories.
Once for intensly personal reasons, I and a colleague in one place had to cross the picket line. We had absolutely no choice. We had to run and get into the buckets of earth movers and were transported a couple of hundred yards and escaped. In the end all our friends lost their positions so we quit too.
Another time in a care home that was partially independent, beautiful, whatever, but that raised the rent constantly for nothing, hardly fed or took care of the residents, and cleared over seventy thousand per month, I saw their spread sheet and nearly fainted, they scammed so much. I finally had it. I heard that a sister place in Kelowna had formed a union and made twice what we did. We all met in secret and the rest approved but were scared for their jobs.This time I did all the work, management found out and made up bogus stuff for me to get fired. I went over their heads and wrote to the owners in another province. The management had secret meetings to make my life a wreck and force me to quit. I hung on.
Finally I was summoned to a meeting. All the others got scared and left the ship and denied being onboard with me. But I guess we scared them enough, they brought ten extra dollars an hour to the table if we would not start and union and all said yes. So here either side doesn't really care about us in my opinion. I believe no one most of the time. IT did not help being a women's editor and a front page editor and meeting all those so called caring union leaders or the owners that abused their workers. I despised all of them. And I would see good people start out with the best intentions and within a year they were just as much a traitor as the rest. Money and the illusion of being in the in crowd and having power did them in. And their was always a Mordrid that came along. Look at poor King Arthur.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:In my humble opinion class distinction, and the restriction on movement between classes, is one of those things America as a whole is utterly delusional about. Its just as strong in America from the figures I've read as it is here. But you have the American Dream drummed into, your told form birth its the aim and that America is where its possible. But it just not born out by the facts

I wasn't trying to imply that the economic reality in America is substantially different than in Britain, but I am interested in the cultural differences and the impact that these perceptions have on politics. I think it's telling that, while organized labor has existed and been influential in both countries, it is Britain that has a Labour Party (regardless of whether or not it's remained true to its roots), and America has only parties that try to pander to the middle class. In the video you posted, John Oliver touches on how people's misperceptions of their economic standing and/or prospects can cause them to vote against their own self-interest, or at least what some scholars define as these people's self-interest. This is a pretty widely-recognized phenomenon, and there have been entire books (and lengthy critical responses) written about it. But this isn't just a conservative issue. The Democratic Party is the more labor-friendly party, but they haven't presented themselves as a party of the working class for a long time. And of course, outside the political realm, aspirationalism leads people to do stupid things, particularly when helped along by predatory lenders.

To me the best part of John Oliver's presentation was about the "estate tax". It's something Republicans hammer so hard that it's become a political meme. Yet as Oliver points out it only affects inheritance above $5.3 million, which effectively means it only affects the very rich. The attack on the estate tax is pure stratospheric classism brought to a popular level.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:there's more of an assumption that social mobility can benefit anyone- Eldo

In my humble opinion class distinction, and the restriction on movement between classes, is one of those things America as a whole is utterly delusional about. Its just as strong in America from the figures I've read as it is here. But you have the American Dream drummed into, your told form birth its the aim and that America is where its possible. But it just not born out by the facts.

"the aspiration for home ownership, which is a common indicator of having achieved middle class status, is deeply ingrained in modern American culture"

Yes, unfortunately your delirious belief in the American Dream occasionally gets out of hand and screws the rest of us, giving the world banking crisis started in the American desire to have the American Dream and the house to prove it, despite not having the money to afford it.

John Oliver put it well- (4.53 if you just want the meat and not the potatoes)



As a side note the class issue being just as big in reality in America as anywhere else is one of the reasons I think PJ was utterly wrong to excise all the class references from LotR's. Its still very relevant everywhere in the western world.

America seems just as class riven as here to me. You even have inherited wealth and inherited power.
Look at your Presidents, from Kennedys to Bush and probably the Clintons next- power moving about within families.
You may as well have a monarchy.

The difference though is that we're all raised on the myth that each of us has the freedom to become the President of the United States or the Richest Person in the United States if we just try hard enough, and each generation gives us a hand full of lottery winners like Obama and Gates to prove the point.

The trouble is that for every lottery winner there are 10 million losers.

I do remeber someone telling me at some point that a lot of Americans tend to vote for the Republicans whatever their present situation, because that's how they want their politics to be run when they "make it."

There is something quite endearing, though blatantly stupid, in that kind of optimism.

The myth that drives americans is important, though.  It does inspire the handful who make a difference.  I don't know how true it is that European style lower classes feel there is no need to try as there's no possibility of rising, but for white Americans and many immigrants they see open sky above them if they have some talent and just try hard enough; fiction or not.

I think the strongest parallel to an ingrained class system is in black america: so many feel there is no point to trying.  Yet the majority of black americans are middle class; they just don't get noticed in favor of the more boisterous entrenched lower class minority.

The myth that drives Americans is important, though. It does inspire the handful who make a difference. - Halfwise

I think as Oliver pointed out optimism is your greatest national trait. But that handful as a percent of your population is no larger than the handful, as a percentage of the UK population, that move up class.
The difference to me seems to be that our system tells you from birth that the chances of you ending life in a higher class than you were born into is possible but slim. Whereas Americans don't seem to notice that the chances are slim and believe it anyway. You believe in the American Dream, despite it never happening for 99% of your population.

As the comedian Al Murray put it, the reason there is no such thing as a British Dream, is that we are awake!



'I do remember someone telling me at some point that a lot of Americans tend to vote for the Republicans whatever their present situation, because that's how they want their politics to be run when they "make it."'- Blue

That reminds me of the Ferengi race in ST:DS9 who are opposed to all forms of labour unions and strike action, not because they dont think as workers they are being exploited, but because all Ferengi dream of one day of reaching the top, becoming a boss, and exploiting others. And they dont want that chance taken away from them before they get there.

Actually DS9 has quite a few subtle and not so subtle nods at US society, this one illustrated by root beer is a personal favourite-

“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Steinbeck

The sad thing is that things aren't going to change.

Halfwise wrote:Yet as Oliver points out it only affects inheritance above $5.3 million, which effectively means it only affects the very rich.

This is funny to me, because I grew up in a conservative republican household, and I would hear this issue blabbled on about ad infinitum by conservative talk radio hosts, but they never mentioned the $5.3 million threshold. Go figure.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Actually DS9 has quite a few subtle and not so subtle nods at US society, this one illustrated by root beer is a personal favourite-

Apparently in the dystopian world of Star Trek: DS9, the galaxy is run by a cartel of shoddy facial prosthetics manufacturers.

Well what a suprise-

'Oil firms BP and GDF Suez have announced the discovery of a new field in the UK Central North Sea.'- BBC

Thats the third 'newly discovered' oil field announced since the referendum debate ended. When we were being told there were no new oil fields and rumours that new fields had been found but were not being announced deliberately were false.

"This discovery shows exactly what can be achieved in the North Sea if companies work together to maximise the considerable potential of remaining oil and gas reserves."- UK government's Business and Energy Minister Matthew Hancock

This from the guy who during the referendum debate was saying the opposite. Hard not to feel the blood boiling when you read stuff like this.
Hardly surprising though, he is also the guy who said even holding the Independence referendum was bad for business as it created uncertainty. But now claims holding an in/out referendum on Europe, our biggest trading partner, does not create uncertainty for businesses.

Clearly he has all the substance of badly made jelly and says whatever suits the political wind.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Well what a suprise-

'Oil firms BP and GDF Suez have announced the discovery of a new field in the UK Central North Sea.'- BBC

What's surprising about that?

Oh wait, that was irony wasn't it?

BTW what's the latest news on the devolution of powers discussion?

Project Fear worked, I guess?