FREEDOM!!!! [3]

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Argyll and Bute- my home turf. Good turn out 88% but a win for NO.

Time for bed I think and to dream of what could have been.    Night all.

I think I will too. Thank you for all the hard work and teaching you have done for just ever.

Well, you may be from the clans, but I for one am glad you are still part of the family. That's another 4 million people to help hold those bastards in Westminster to account.

2015 generals up next.... and I think they are all a waste of space!

All relevant commiserations, Petty. That's a real shame. At least for the Scottish. The Union is better off together, I think, but Scotland would have prospered as an independent nation.

I guess the scaretactics must have worked. And being hammered by seeming uncertainties by almost the entier media, including supposedly unbiased broadcasters like the BBC, will obviously have had an effect.

Here's hoping you get those devolved powers.

Yep, at least the close vote should have woken up Westminster that something's gotta change. A vote for separation is very extreme, over here if a state voted to break away I think even Hawaii and Alaska would be hard pressed to break 20%. Texas or California might get 10%; the rest would be low single digits at best, just fringe voters. And the higher number states would be mainly a political demonstration rather than actual desire.

The Scottish vote reminds me of a story about a young eastern city slicker showing up at the California gold mining strikes. At some point his mule dug in his hooves, and all the pulling swearing and pushing wouldn't budge him.

An old timer came up to him and said "Son, you have to understand the psychology of a mule, talk to him, cajole him, get him on the same path as you."

The young city boy backed off saying, "Okay, go ahead and show me how to do it."

The old timer walked up to the mule, leaned over to pick up a board, and swacked the mule right between the eyes with it. As the mule reeled, starry eyed, the young man exclaimed "what happened to talking to him, cajoling him?!"

The old timer replied "I will, but first I had to get his attention."

I am sorry that Petty is disappointed.

but. Thank god for that! what a relief.

This feels awful.
The only thing I can compare it too is the feeling you get when you've been betrayed by someone you loved and trusted- like your gut is being repeatedly punched.
I was down town earlier and I can only describe the atmosphere as funereal. Everyone seemed to be talking in whispers.
If the NO side are celebrating there was not a sign of it.
And to make matters worse a break down of the vote on age lines shows that 72% of the 16 and 17 years olds voted YES.
The older generation betrayed their optimism and vision and thats even more depressing.
They could have had the chance to build a better country for themselves and have been denied it.

I was talking with my little brother- he did Chemistry at college and has been trying to find work for the last year and a half since leaving. He finally got a job, part time, stacking shelves in the local supermarket for £54 a week.
How the hell is someone supposed to build a future on that?

I look at my nieces and I cant see a future for them here and thats depressing me too.

Losing the battle may feel bad, but winning wouldn't have been easy either, especially in a near 50/50 split. You'd have seen the various groups that had united for the victory split again into their different visions of the future, with no strong majority vision. That's a recipe for a lot of drama.

I'm sure you'd have worked through it, but it was almost guaranteed to get divisive and ugly, probably along the young/old line that you mention, and also along the Highland/Island vs. the urban south, judging by the voting. I could see one more split coming, rather like the United States with its Civil War following the Revolutionary War, though hopefully a lot less bloody. That's just a part of the process in something like this, I'm thinking.

Anyway, you won a major strategic advantage yesterday. I'm sure there will be positive changes in the next months and years if reasonable heads are allowed to prevail. So once you're done drowning your sorrows, have a celebratory one on me!

I'm sure there will be positive changes in the next months and years- David

I dont believe this will happen.
The backsliding on the promises has already begun.

Salmond is stepping down, but he said that after the vote he had spoken to Cameron on the phone and Cameron had called the timetable he NO side laid out- 'a meaningless process'.

' He said he had spoken on the telephone to the Prime Minister who had "reiterated his intention to proceed as he outlined".
"But he would not commit to a second reading vote by March 27 on a new Scotland Bill", which the SNP leader said was a clear promise set out by Gordon Brown in the campaign.
The PM said such a vote would be "meaningless", according to Mr Salmond, who added: "I suspect he can't guarantee the support of his party."- Sky News

Miliband, Labour leader is also backtracking. The reason for him is that more powers to Scotland means a greater push for an English Parliament, which would leave the Labour party in it in a much weaker position without the Scottish Labour votes.

This may get ugly yet sadly.

Its got ugly faster than I thought it would.
Its kicked off in Glasgow in George Square.
Glasgow went YES and George Square has been full of supporters gethering and commiserating but no trouble.
But then a group of Loyalists turned up with Union Jacks and banners saying "Scotland is British. No Surrender."
For those who dont understand the 'No Surender' reference here this is Glasgows sectarian divide coming to the fore. This is the Irish problem in Scotland.
According to reports the Loyalists charged from four different direction, indicating a planned coordinated attack.
Riot police are now on the scene,

Ayup Jason...

Doesn't Democracy hurt when you don't get what you want ? I'm disappointed you cant show any grace in defeat, although I understand you're feeling hurt. The Labour party SHOULD repeal the Bedroom Tax, ease Tuition fees (and TBH, I dont see why our students shouldnt actually pay them like Americans do without a problem). You scots will get increased local powers. (Devo Max or whatever theyre calling it) which means more decisions you can make for yourselves and more money from the UK money pot as the whole UKs economy grows. Hell, even I'm optimistic for the first time in a long time, as the job I started 3 months ago and quit yesterday morning was replaced yesterday afternoon for a slightly better one. Which I start monday. Not rocket science, but more money, better hours and a little bit of stability for myself. I know that won't persuade you that we're better together as a country, but what we ALL need to do now is throw the Fucking Tories out, and stick a Double cattle prod up the Labour partys Arse, so that it wakes up and realises where we are as a country as they seem to have been asleep for the last two years. Personally, I'm a Lib Dem man in the sense of I hate the 'ping-pong' politics of just the main two parties, Lab and Tory, and want something different and less extreme in British life. And I know I wont get that, but I keep voting for them just in case the countrys mood swings. we need LESS extremists and not more.

Never mind Old chap.

I'm disappointed you cant show any grace in defeat- feanor

I can only assume you never read all my posts then-

'As for me, I'm hugely disappointed, but I believe in democracy as the best way we have of doing these things.
The result is the result, now we have to work together to ensure we get more devolution.'

Since the result I have commented only on my personal feelings and impressions and on further political developments that have happened since regarding the 'promises' made and on the ongoing trouble in Glasgow.

On your broader point forgive me for asking- but where the hell has this socialist leaning England been then for the last twenty years? One of the reasons we got to this point is not because Scotland has been moving away form England, but because since Thatcher England has been moving away from Scotland, ever more right of centre.
Look at the country now. You are even voting in numbers for those well dressed racists UKIP. The Labour party is fronted by millionares who have never done any labour and, as they were under Blair's Labour, right of centre. And the Lib-Dems are supporting Tory policies charging students for their education, privatizing the national health service and cutting benefits to the poorest in society whilst cutting taxes to the richest.
Is it any wonder those of us in Scotland who are centre left dont see much hope in England electing a left of centre government capable of bringing in social democratic reform?

Ayup Jason...

First of all, Sorry formissing that post. I only saw the one with all the ppictures on it and assumed (wrongly) that it was your disappointment gone bad. So Apologies again.

Secondly, yes, where has all that gone ? I dont know but I want it back. Where we all cared about eachother, and across National boundaries too. The UK is now a land of spivs and chancers with even the chavs doing OK, with the majority of folks now only bothered about themselves. It did indeed disappear during the Blair years, but I never voted for him once, as I saw he was a tory of the bluest persuasion, and Brown just an Incompetent jealous backstabbing prick. It also bothers me that 'education' is pushed as hard as possible with unrealistic targets for small kids to be measured against, which takes the fun out of learning as I ever understood it. Where even after all that education, you have to take ANY kind of work if you cannot find it yourself. As to the racists in our country, I have never sided with them, and never will. Folks like us are at the moment under the cosh. But all we can do is try to persuade and cajole and help people remeber how once Britain was truly Great.

I have a spark of hope left. Scotland has in the past as part of the Union been the leader, on economics, on social issues, on armed forces and in science. We have shown the way for all of the UK on a few occasions, and my hope is that out of this we can do the same again by giving confidence to those who feel disenfranchised like us. Show them that if they take to the town halls, if they make the demands of their elected leaders, if instead of waiting on the political classes to come closer to the people, the people take it to the political classes, something good might yet come out of all this for all of us.
The turn out for this vote was astonishing- you have to go back to 1910, when n women and many men were excluded to find that sort of turn out for a UK election of any sort. The people found heir voice in the last two years, not just in town halls but in their street, with their neighbours, with their work colleagues in their family.
If we can preserve that and make it spread to England, then there is still hope.

I believe what has happened today WILL change peoples views & ideas, how could it not ? This IS a history changer, & anyone alive today & remembers what has happened should be a tad proud because I believe NOTHING will be the same now ! Little pebbles can make a landslide, theres no going back to the old ways now, People need a kick up the arse to give Government a kick up the arse, I hope its the biggest kick Government has never had to !

I really hope you are right Azriel.
One thing that could and should immediately change is that all UK voting should be open to anyone over the age of 16.
The engagement in politics among that age group and the thought they have put into their decisions is one of the highlights of this campaign.
It would be a shame to lose that, they have more than proved themselves deserving of the right to vote as much as any over 18 has.

I told Clayton-Ashley and Hasia at breakfast this morning. I could not stop the tears and they went dead quiet. Clayton could not speak. When they left for the day, I just wanted to be alone and think, we will have birthday supper late tonight, and I will get through it for them, I just wanted to think. I cannot just leave it and oh well, it is people's dreams and lives. It is the future. So what if it is really hard, it was so when all nations start. So what. I am so tired of folk doing whatever because it is easiest all round. What about the soul, the spirit of a man.
Yesterday I was watching David Suchet in my favorite version of Orient Express. He prayed for guidance, but the twelve so badgered him and complained and harassed him that he gave in and said it was an imaginary killer. Then it ends with him walking past them into the snow laden woods and he pulls out his rosary and then he cries and cries. He gave in and lost his dignity and his spirit would for evermore ache because he went against what was right. He became one of them and it would never stop now the avenging and the killing and justifying.

I told Clayton-Ashley and Hasia at breakfast this morning. I could not stop the tears and they went dead quiet.- leelee

You tell them from me that if we cannot decide our own fate for own country, then we will change the fate of the UK.
We have chosen to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and we have to cut our cloth to suit, and that means engaging the rest of the nations in the belief that the people really can make it a better place, and worth being a part of.
You make sure they know we are down hearted but to dry their eyes, we are not out and we have found our voice.

Sorry to hear you're feling that way, Petty. I know the feeling, and it can be pretty horrible.

On the devolution issue, didn't Cameron state publicly after the no result that he would honour his promises, that Scotland and the other regional regions of the UK would get extended devolutive powers and that all this is planned to be implemented as early as January next year? That's what fjordlandian news reported anyway.

He did say these things Blue.
But problem is no one else seems to agree with him in Westminster (including many in his own party).

Milliband sees Camerons plan as a means to neuter Labour in England. An English only government would be heavily Tory most of the time as it would not only exclude Labour MP's from Scotland but from the other devolved nations too, and thats where Labour is strongest and gets a lot of its MP's from. So on domestic English policies like Health the Torys could privatise the whole thing and bring in the US model and Labour couldnt do a thing about it.

Instead Milliband is talking about a 'national conversation' to decide the way, but not until after next years general election, way beyond the timetable promise of January. Some say thats just a 'kick the whole thing into the long grass' option.
And the lib-dems are talking regional assemblies, which neither of the other two want.

Ayup Jason...

You talk about folks coming to the Town Halls and making politicians 'do things' for them, and they should, but the scots and the welsh have not done this thing you ask of the citizen, choosing to be aloof behind the welsh hills and Hadrians wall. you have expected westminster to come to Holyrood and Cardiff, and it just doesnt do things like that. Hell, it wouldn't even travel to Birmingham if it could avoid it. So the scots have had a part to play in the disquiet between our two provinces. Salmon thought he could exploit that and break the Union AND defeat a Tory Government in the process. Its been Bonkers, Unnecessary, expensive and ultimately a failure especially for him. But Of all our citizens I feel most sorry for the Northern Irish, who are staunch believers in the union, but have themselves been shit on by Westminster, especially in regards to the Troubles. And yet they still come to Westminster to be heard and be involved in the process.

The SNP dont send MP's to sit when the House is discussing matters that only effect England, they do so on a point of principle- that its unfair to the English to have Scottish MPs passing laws that only effect England when English MP's cant pass any laws affecting devolved Scotland.
Labour however have all their MP's from Scotland in the House for everything and have no such principle, as they need the Scottish MP's to make up the numbers.
People here do still engage with Westminster through the ballot, but its a balance.
When its devolved matters the focus is on the Scottish Parliament, but when it comes to Westminster all our Mp's are present from all the parties.
Even whilst Scotland voted in a majority SNP government, we returned a Labour vote at the last general election, and had it been up to Scotland would have put Brown back in power.
So I don't think there is a process to engage more directly short of going down to England to have town hall meetings there.

But its also true that the more power Holyrood has in Scotland and the less Westminster has over Scotland the less attention will be paid to Westminster as it will have less direct relevance.

'Conservative MP Owen Paterson demanded an immediate recall of Parliament to debate a new constitutional settlement.
He said it had been "completely unacceptable that right at the end of the campaign we have an ex-Labour leader (Gordon Brown) galloping off up to Scotland making some very rash promises of extensive new powers to the Scottish people - apparently with the endorsement of all three UK party leaders."

UKIP leader Nigel Farage said "I think England needs a voice," he said. "We've heard a lot from Scotland. The tail can't continue wagging the dog any longer."

So it begins.

Out of curiosity, has the SNP and/or the YES campaign ever weighed in on the topic of devolution in England? It seems to be a very reasonable proposal at this point, after more than 15 years of devolution in Scotland and Wales with no end to the increased powers yet in sight.

The SNP have always said its a matter for England, but they took the stance of not voting on English only matters.

But its all going horribly wrong already it seems looking at the newspapers.

'Salmond quits as powers for Scotland are blocked'- Times

'Cross-part agreement forged over Scottish referendum is shattered'-Independent

'Political consensus to give new powers to Scotland collapses within hours of referendum verdict.'

'Boris attacks Cameron for 'reckless promises'-i