Homosexuality and LotR

Be careful, Mr Banks! This Baingil girl is clearly a spy -- probably for that monarchist Tinuviel!

Kafria as the 'Lady beneath the table' Odo?!

And you claim to be respectable? Shame on you. What sort of a position is that for a mother? Surely something to do with the catering would be more appropriate.

Catering and laundry, I think. Lady beneath the table? You disappoint me, Odo, what a thing to say

Oh what an honor, just what every little girl dreams of, growing up to be useful to the men folk! Baking, cooking, cleaning, clearing up after them so they can do all that serious thinking that makes my head spin! Standing by, ready to fill glasses and plates with tasty morsels to sustain them. I'd best get my cook books out now. Maybe start on a few cakes and scones. Better see how the strawberry crop is, homemade jam is the best after all. I wonder if for these meetings they'll want tea and coffee to keep heads clear or serious liqour for serious topics?
And what Mr Tyrant and Mr Ringdrotten mean I have no idea, Master Odo is a pillar of respectablility! He wouldn't ask me to do anything that wasn't decent and right I am sure of it!


(Mm! )

When I bake cinnamon rolls it's for myself. Unless you guys are really, really nice.

I guess common sence is not dat common here. What a load of ballox. Gimli and Legolas gay. Next you are going to say Sherlock and Watson, Jeeves and Bertie Wooster are gay. Ballox Ballox and more ballox. None of dem were gay, homosexuality is a modern phenomena, in the past they were just bluddy sodomites. Too much time waiting on the film is turning yer minds to mush.

As a girl I have no probs hugging a girl or sharing a bed in me caravan wit one. It dont mean i'm gay. An guys wit long hair being gay is also ballox, Mr American flag, de natives your ancestors massacred were long haired. Cochise, Sitting bull and Geronimo were not gay.

You lot in the UK and the USA have rotten childhoods because of yer broken relationships and disfunctional families.

The USA is only marginally better than the UK but both are behind Ireland. You need empiracle evidence, check this out:
http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/rc7_eng.pdf

ps exams are nearly over and are going well.

Gimli is not gay!!!

Brian Boru wrote:Gimli is not gay!!!

Well, with such an eloquent and convincing argument, who am I to disagree?

I am tempted to say that Gimli is gay now, for the sake of adding fuel to the fire, so to speak

Eldorion wrote:

Brian Boru wrote:Gimli is not gay!!!

Well, with such an eloquent and convincing argument, who am I to disagree?

If your looking fer eloquent, yer not going te find it from me. I just tink dat yee all are reading into the text yer modern liberal values. Some real isogesis. I'm not smart enough to argue wit de likes of you lot; but I can recognise ballox when I read it. My gut reaction can not be measured; yer like the old time Yanks seeing reds under the bed. I dont have a problem wit yer homos but de are not in every subliminal text ye read. I'm surprised none of yee petty scholars have not looked at de book like a bible code and found secret messages dat aren't there. I'm surprised none of ye have had de radio edits recorded backwards. I just tink dat de movie is taking too long to come out and ye are like a dag locked in a crate scratching yerselves raw wit yer underchallenged intelect.

so away an roll yer eyes at someone who gives a sheeite.

We've got plenty of other stuff to talk about while we wait for the films, hence the other sections on the forum. And nobody has said that Gimli (nor Legolas, funny you didn't mention him) was gay, but that there are some indications that he (they) might be. No need to get all excited, it's just a thought for discussion.

The question Brian didn't come from 'reading into the text' its a discussion off a simple question; "For what reason was Gimli granted the honour of leaving the world with Legolas when no other elf/human friendship before was rewarded in such a fashion."
When trying to speculate on an answer its perfectly reasonable to look at their relationship to see if there was something different about it. Its not about bringing modern ideas to it- if you read further back you will see that the very circumspect nature of Gimli and Legolas's friendship could be seen as similar to homosexual releations at the time Tolkien lived, not comparitive to modern times, when it was still a criminal act and often went under the guise of 'just very good friends'.

I agree Ringdrotten! Posting at same time but you put it well.

And yes, you are right, until the film comes out we will have to amuse ourselves and try to keep things here ticking over, and discussion like this help.

Personally, Brian, I think it's unlikely that Tolkien intended Gimli and Legolas to be gay. However, Petty makes a number of interesting and valid points (although Freedom76 does not), and I don't think it's fair to just dismiss everything he says as "ballox" or to insult other members of the forum for discussing what he has to say.

Kafria said: "And what Mr Tyrant and Mr Ringdrotten mean I have no idea, Master Odo is a pillar of respectablility! He wouldn't ask me to do anything that wasn't decent and right I am sure of it!"

Exactly so! The underside of tables need cleaning, just as the tops do. (Yes, I did say this on another thread, but I think it important I reaffirm it).

As to you Brian Boru. Feisty! Very!

Galadriel's words to Gimli through Gandalf: 'Lockbearer whereever you go my thoughts go with you.' Not only were Galadriel's thoughts of goodwill travelling with Gimli but he was carrying a piece of her hair on him. She was with him spiritually/mentally and physically. We can see an example of this in The Return of The King where Frodo has a vision of Galadriel and uses the light in the bottle to confront shelob.

The amazing thing is this friendship came about when Gimli's side and Legolas' side were still in grudge mode against each other. I see like this, that the two had already decided beforehand for reconciliation long before the ring was destroyed. This may be the reason Legolas took Gimli into the woods during their stay at Caras Galadhon to visit other elves reconcile and form friendships. Of course on departing, Gimli asked Galadriel for a lock of her hair.

Seems to me he was reminded constantly of Galadriel, having Legolas as a great friend, her lock of hair and the words she spoke through Gandalf.

To Legolas Gandalf retold the words as spoken by Galadriel, 'Beware of the sea' íf you hear the cry of the gull on the shore' 'Your heart shall then rest in the forest no more'.

Now why did she tell him to beware of the sea? To my way of thinking reconciliation bought about between the friendship of a dwarf and an elf may have influenced the voting in Valinor/Undying Lands for Gimli.

As I mentioned before Gimli's attitude towrds Galadriel is not inconsistent with being gay. Look at how many strong modern women have a strong gay following. That Gimli should be so entranced by her does not determine the issue one way or the other I don't think. And when she is handing out bows, magic sword sheaths and phials asking for a lock of hair isnt exactly the most manly gift to request is it?

I think you make to much of the reconcilation aspect. It was rare but not unique, there were other human/elf friendships in the past, there must have been hundreds of them when the elves lived at Hollin, new ones will be being made between Thranduils folk and the men of Dale and the Dwarves of Erebor all the time. Yet none of them were allowed to cross the sea and take the straight road.

What if Galadriel was so fond of Gimli that she let Legolas bring this unusual friend with him? Perhaps not the likliest explanation, but who knows.

An interesting thought Ringdrotten- but how much influuence would an ex-rebel whose only just been repreived have? In ME Galadriel is a big fish in a small pond, in the Undying Lands I'm not so sure given all her circumstances. I'm not sure she would be in a position to make demands.

Surely Galadriel must have had some influence? I don't know much about elf lore and who the big guys/women are, but Galadriel must be one of them?

I wonder what Tolkien's view of homosexuality might be. Was he Pro or not? I suspect he might have tolerated the idea (he did not seem that much of a reactionary) but would he have had gay characters? I don't think so. (Maybe subconciously Tolkien might have thought Morgoth was gay ---- let's face it, he is a Satan trope, and Satan approves of homosexulaity by all accounts).

odo banks wrote:(Maybe subconciously Tolkien might have thought Morgoth was gay ---- let's face it, he is a Satan trope, and Satan approves of homosexulaity by all accounts).

What's that supposed to mean???? If nothing is meant by it, fine, but I think that's VERY unrespectable to say. VERY!!!!!!!!!!!

I have done a read through about this being called Morgoth(who I thought was a citadel or fortress) and it seems to be closely related to a character in the Bible. His name was Lucifer until he was cast down to the ground.

Quote from the Bible:
How have you fallen from heaven, O light-bringer and daystar, son of the morning! How you have been cut down to the ground, you who weakened and laid low the nations.

And you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit upon the Mount of Assembly in the uppermost north.

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will make myself like the Most High.

In the beginning both were created beings, both desired to have, both rebelled against their Creator.

Lucifer's name changed to Satan adversary of God and Melkor became Morgoth opponents of good.

The bible does say- that if a man lies with a man as if he were a woman both have commited an offense an abomination.

Tolkien had a very grounded background in biblical things and although it is not obvious in the LOTR the book does deliver a message with a providence theme(divine care).

Tolkien and CS Lewis were close friends and met together regularly with other members of their club. Was this friendship akin to Gimli and Legolas? That is until Joy Gresham showed up.

All well put, Springstar! Lewis and Tolkien were not gay. Legolas and Gimli were not gay! Mr Tyrant is just a rabble rouser! Indeed, a disrespectable trouble maker! Of course, I mean it kindly...

What's so upsetting, Tin?

odo banks wrote:
(Maybe subconciously Tolkien might have thought Morgoth was gay ---- let's face it, he is a Satan trope, and Satan approves of homosexulaity by all accounts).


This comment. The last part is quite offensive.