Re: Somebody from ToRn tell it how it is

by malickfan Wed May 07, 2014 12:13 am

Well I hardly ever post there anymore, but it's not necessarily people being rude that's the problem, it's people not understanding how to have an arguement.

Anyone with an opinion has to tiptoe around the site treating everyone like a curious child, have a strong negative opinion and everyone takes it personally 'Why are you posting here if you don't love the films?' threads often turn into flame wars. I don't know many people very well on the forum, but there definitely seems to be less of the regulars around from when I joined.

by Eldorion Wed May 07, 2014 2:42 am

malickfan wrote:'Why are you posting here if you don't love the films?'

This is kinda funny to me since it's such a classic response to pop culture criticism and I used to hear it all the time. Laughing

Flame wars over purism used to be the rule on most Tolkien forums. A big part of this was a generational clash between older and newer fans. It was also a self-perpetuating sort of thing with large numbers of people with very intense emotions, and each argument or bit of drama would ratchet the whole thing up. Lots of sites took heavy-handed moderation policies in response to this, in part out of fear that overly-aggressive purists would scare away newbies, and probably in part because many of the mods were themselves from the younger, generally more movie-friendly generation of fans. While the Purist Wars of old sputtered out years ago, all of the mods on TORn have been there for a long time and I'm sure they remember what it was like.

Also, having a larger number of members (and especially having the number of newbies they get, being attached to their gigantic blog) means that arguments blow up really easily. When people don't know each other, they're also more reluctant to back down. Imagine Petty-vs-Figgs levels of intensity, but between two strangers (so no mushy reconciliation). Then imagine this happening every week or two, if not more frequently. Then imagine that you're a moderator who has been charged with maintaining a peaceful, family-friendly environment on the forum. It makes the mind boggle both for the mods and the regular members. I've seen it from both sides, although in retrospect this is probably part of the problem: I got made a mod while I was still in my phase of hyper-aggressive "something is wrong on the Internet" debating. Rolling Eyes

One might say that the proper response to this is to do away with the family-friendly rules and just let people go at each other in the flame pits. Honestly, this used to be my preferred type of forum, but I've grown to have some reservations. For one, it's very easy for this to tip over from "rigorous, demanding arena for debate" to "mindless bashing of others", and when it does you need mods to step in and kick a few asses. Two, the level of intensity alienates a lot of people who would otherwise like to participate in such discussions. But the downside of stricter moderation is that it can make it more difficult for people to express themselves and have interesting debates. But such are the perils of running a forum with a large enough userbase that not everyone knows each other.

by Mrs Figg Wed May 07, 2014 1:42 pm

Imagine Petty-vs-Figgs levels of intensity, but between two strangers (so no mushy reconciliation). Eldo

Mushy?????? Suspect

Somebody from ToRn tell it how it is - Page 5 Tumblr_m5reikXRbN1rr6zpho2_500_zpsec92c1e3

by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 07, 2014 2:20 pm

Yeah I object to that too! Mushy indeed. Evil or Very Mad

by Eldorion Wed May 07, 2014 7:26 pm

Now I'm really glad I changed what I had originally said in that parenthetical. Laughing

by malickfan Wed May 07, 2014 8:55 pm

Eldorion wrote:
malickfan wrote:'Why are you posting here if you don't love the films?'

This is kinda funny to me since it's such a classic response to pop culture criticism and I used to hear it all the time. :lol:Flame wars over purism used to be the rule on most Tolkien forumsused to be? Are people over purism? I would count myself as a partial purist but I simply can't be bothered to argue-it's all be done before. A big part of this was a generational clash between older and newer fansWith The Hobbit it seems to be clash between the new and the new, very few of the 'oldies' (from when I joined TORn) have really strong opinions on The Hobbit films or are still active, as you say later, they've likely seen it all before, it's weird you are what I'd call an oldie, but I'm three years older than you. It was also a self-perpetuating sort of thing with large numbers of people with very intense emotions, and each argument or bit of drama would ratchet the whole thing up. Lots of sites took heavy-handed moderation policies in response to this, in part out of fear that overly-aggressive purists would scare away newbiesAgressive PJ boot lickers have scared me away from TORn..., and probably in part because many of the mods were themselves from the younger, generally more movie-friendly generation of fans. While the Purist Wars of old sputtered out years ago, all of the mods on TORn have been there for a long time Some have been active since day one-over 15 yearsand I'm sure they remember what it was like.

Also, having a larger number of members (and especially having the number of newbies they get, being attached to their gigantic blog) means that arguments blow up really easilythat's a issue I have with TORn I don't find it intimate enough to have a comfortable discussion. When people don't know each other, they're also more reluctant to back down. Imagine Petty-vs-Figgs levels of intensity , but between two strangers (so no mushy reconciliation). Then imagine this happening every week or two, if not more frequently. Then imagine that you're a moderator who has been charged with maintaining a peaceful, family-friendly environment on the forum. It makes the mind boggle both for the mods and the regular membersUnfortunately I always seem to miss the flame wars, by the time I've figured out the issue the posts have been edited.... I've seen it from both sidestell me, were you made, or did you volunteer as a mod? because I think that makes a difference, although in retrospect this is probably part of the problem: I got made a mod while I was still in my phase of hyper-aggressive "something is wrong on the Internet" debatingjudging by the length of your posts you still are! .

One might say that the proper response to this is to do away with the family-friendly rules and just let people go at each other in the flame pits. Honestly, this used to be my preferred type of forum, but I've grown to have some reservationsTORn is a family friendly publicly funded site, so this would be a no go. For one, it's very easy for this to tip over from "rigorous, demanding arena for debate" to "mindless bashing of others", and when it does you need mods to step in and kick a few asses. Two, the level of intensity alienates a lot of people who would otherwise like to participate in such discussions. But the downside of stricter moderation is that it can make it more difficult for people to express themselves and have interesting debatesSee this is what you are doing well here, having a bit of both. But such are the perils of running a forum with a large enough userbase that not everyone knows each otherI recoginse about 12 names on TORn, two of them are you and Petty....

by Eldorion Wed May 07, 2014 11:59 pm

malickfan wrote:]used to be? Are people over purism? I would count myself as a partial purist but I simply can't be bothered to argue-it's all be done before

It's not that purism doesn't exist; if anything, it's more popular now than it ever has been before. But in part because it's more common and in part because all of the debates are played out, it hasn't raged as intense this time around, I don't think. Maybe it's worse on TORn, but I haven't noticed as much acrimony from my recent visits there.

With The Hobbit it seems to be clash between the new and the new, very few of the 'oldies' (from when I joined TORn) have really strong opinions on The Hobbit films or are still active, as you say later, they've likely seen it all before, it's weird you are what I'd call an oldie, but I'm three years older than you

That's a good point. There is a life cycle of sorts to people's fannish activity, especially on forums. When I said older fans, though -- and I was definitely unclear on this -- I mainly meant people who had been familiar with the books prior to the films coming out, not necessarily people that had been active in online fandom before then. Tolkien fandom didn't even make it to the web in a meaningful way until the wave of film hype drove activity up (prior to that the main focus had been Usenet), so most people were relatively new to the forums. But nowadays, anyone who was debating LOTR when it came out will have been on the forums for over 10 years, and activity usually peaks in much less time than that. There's also a whole generation of people (such as myself) who grew up with films on DVD and don't remember the theatrical releases at all. However, there are still differences between those who read the books first and those who didn't, at least in my experience. So there's a number of factors that result in the different dynamic this time around. I find the contrast pretty interesting myself. Smile

Agressive PJ boot lickers have scared me away from TORn...

I was mainly describing the way things were on the Plaza and a couple of other forums; I'm not as familiar with TORn's history but I do know they've always been more movie-centric. So perhaps it's more simple tribalism there? But younger fans are -- or were traditionally -- much more likely to be movie defenders so I think there was so protectiveness towards them from mods.

that's a issue I have with TORn I don't find it intimate enough to have a comfortable discussion

Yeah, there's really not much for it once a forum gets past a certain size. I think when you have large forums like that, more people turn to IM or other private, off-site forms of communication to build meaningful friendships with people they know. You still have plenty of chatty threads, generally, but they can be overwhelming with how many people there are so it's harder to break in. At that point, the core of the community spends at least as much time in chat rooms, and getting invited into one is how you know you've made it and been accepted.

Unfortunately I always seem to miss the flame wars, by the time I've figured out the issue the posts have been edited...

I try, as a general rule, to not delete posts (even if I do take action on them) in part for this reason. It was always really frustrating for me to know some sort of drama had gone down but for all the evidence to have been hidden away. It's not like deleting posts stops people from talking and speculating about it.

tell me, were you made, or did you volunteer as a mod? because I think that makes a difference

Asking to be a mod or making public your desire to be one was a sure-fire to get on the "do not promote" list, so I was chosen by the admins. However, it was something I really wanted at the time (I was 15 and the forum was, as is common on larger sites, very cliqueish) so I tried to step up and be useful in the hopes that I would be noticed and considered for promotion. And clearly it worked. Razz

judging by the length of your posts you still are!

I really invite this on me by writing so much on these topics. Laughing

I do think my posts tend to have a more, shall we say, contemplative tone these days rather than going after people and trying to challenge their specific points. I spend more time reflecting on stuff and trying to make sense out of all sorts of things (and then making absurd posts like this one where I pontificate on it to see if people agree or not).

See this is what you are doing well here, having a bit of both

I'm really glad you think it's working well. Smile

I was a real stickler for rules when I was a mod on the Plaza, and could be an asshole to people who I thought weren't up to the standards of discussion and posting in the "serious" forums. Razz

So I wanted to try something very different here, though I also knew that it was partially out of my hands. There was no higher authority (admin) to set me up on a pedestal of authority, and so my age, my quirks, and my over-earnestness (which is a ripe target for mockery) made it hard to get people to listen to me. At least that's how it felt from my end. Very Happy

I recoginse about 12 names on TORn, two of them are you and Petty...

Well, the longer one spends on a forum the more names you pick up, and if you make an effort to join the community one can build relationships with different people. But it's definitely harder than the just slipping in style of smaller forums. I think it's because, when a forum gets that large, people tend to bunch off into little groups based around certain interests and/or specific friendships and spend the lion's share of their time in that sub-group (even if they're still posting on the open forum). This ties into the clique thing I mentioned above.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 08, 2014 12:09 am

I recognise about 12 names on TORn, two of them are you and Petty- Malick

if you make an effort to join the community one can build relationships with different people. - Elodo

I just barge into ToRN drunk, unannounced and definitely unwanted, point out how wrong they all are, and stagger back home again. drunken

"my age, my quirks, and my over-earnestness (which is a ripe target for mockery) made it hard to get people to listen to me. "- Eldo

I think you always underestimate yourself in this regard, possibly because you sometimes mistake mockery for a lack of respect (I could be wrong on that of course).
It is perfectly possible to mock someone you feel you have come to know whilst never for a moment losing a single ounce of respect for them.
Certainly I have never taken your age into regard when it comes to your opinion on Admin and mod matters (or many other matters either). You were by the far the most experienced person with forums. And you do it well, which is not only a bonus for the forum but earns the respect you have which is deserved through your actions and conduct.

If only you could stop squireling our funds away to your offshore account! Mad

by Eldorion Thu May 08, 2014 12:14 am

I get teased plenty for taking things too serious in real life, not just online, and I've learned how to take it in stride. And you guys have been extremely kind and generous towards me, which means the world to me, so I believe what you say about respect. I have the awards to prove it, after all. Very Happy

But I think that part of the reason why I have been far less authoritative than is normal for forum admins -- in addition to wanting to do something different -- is that I started off as just another member of the community and it seemed to me that the other older members especially continued to see me as just another guy. I'm not complaining about this, I don't want to be passing down judgements from on high, it was just an observation about the dynamics here. But of course, I could be wrong, and maybe it's just that getting you guys to do something would be like herding cats no matter who was in charge. Mad

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by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 08, 2014 12:33 am

getting you guys to do something would be like herding cats no matter who was in charge.- Eldo

You are right there. And sometimes I think it might be fun to see someone try! Very Happy

by Mrs Figg Thu May 08, 2014 12:47 am

I can herd cats

by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 08, 2014 12:50 am

You are not allowed to be Admin Mrs Figg- blame Eldo, Forumshire has a glass ceiling, with only him above it Mad

by Mrs Figg Thu May 08, 2014 12:53 am

my pussy herding is legend

by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 08, 2014 12:59 am

Im not sure if that would impress Eldo or not Mrs Figg.

by Mrs Figg Thu May 08, 2014 1:02 am

by Eldorion Thu May 08, 2014 1:04 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Im not sure if that would impress Eldo or not Mrs Figg.

Ever since the question of my gender was answered, I have to keep something mysterious about me. Rolling Eyes

by halfwise Thu May 08, 2014 1:22 am

Eldorion wrote:I assume they banned your IP, otherwise you'd be able to read the thread without logging in. If that's the case, you'd have to look at the thread on a mobile device or a computer in a different location than your usual one. Alternatively, you could ask them to let you back in, which seems to have worked for Petty at least once.

I can't read it either, and as far as I know I've never been thrown out. That's Figgs' distinction - not even Petty has managed to pull that off.

by halfwise Thu May 08, 2014 1:28 am

Never mind, now I can. Rolling Eyes

Friggin' modern palantir boxes.

by Tinuviel Thu May 08, 2014 1:57 am

I wonder if it would be possible to anger the people at torn by being too liberal. I think I might give it a try. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard. I'd just have to act like a complete idiot who knows nothing of Tolkien. I might give it a go once I'm home in a few days. I've never really posted on torn, so I'm curious to see how I'd be received.

by halfwise Thu May 08, 2014 2:03 am

Are you kidding? You'd fit right in.

by Eldorion Thu May 08, 2014 2:03 am

That sounds suspiciously close to trolling. Suspect

by bungobaggins Thu May 08, 2014 2:25 am

Tinuviel wrote:I wonder if it would be possible to anger the people at torn by being too liberal. I think I might give it a try. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard. I'd just have to act like a complete idiot who knows nothing of Tolkien. I might give it a go once I'm home in a few days. I've never really posted on torn, so I'm curious to see how I'd be received.

I tried to do this once. I made an over-the-top pro-PJ username and everything (it was something like, "PJ's Number 1 Fan" or something like that). They didn't approve my account though. Razz

by Tinuviel Thu May 08, 2014 3:11 am

Eldorion wrote:That sounds suspiciously close to trolling.

But it's an experiment!! I'm just curious about the limits of their liberalism. Hell, maybe I'll just flat up as "how far is too far for you?" and see what comes!

...or I could troll Trollface

by RA Thu May 08, 2014 5:57 pm

I've only been to TorN (capitalization Razz

) a few times but the weird tab reply thing for comments is weird.
Incidentally I go to another non Tolkien forum filled with over-zealous mods and a very strict code of conduct; it definitely makes me appreciate this place more. I don't know if TorN is like that but it'd be a shame if it was.

by Mrs Figg Thu May 08, 2014 6:06 pm

I got banned for just mentioning the marketing of EEs with an extra WHOLE 15 minutes of crap. I didnt mention the word crap I just said it was unethical to sell useless stuff to kids with not a lot of cash due to a world financial crisis. They didnt like that. I didnt swear use bad language or was I aggressive or rude, I just gave my opinion. They quite cleverly painted me into corner and goaded me until I eventually snapped. my stupid fault for playing their game.