is the arkenstone one of the silmarils?

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:31 pm

What if the witch was hoarse?- Halfwise

Aren't all witches hoarse? Comes as a package with the cackle, warty nose and one tooth.  Nod 

On the plus side they are always in black so we know for definite what colour.  Very Happy

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Post by azriel Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:48 am

Witches are hoarse from shouting at dumb arse princes, kings & twonk heads who dont do as they are told  Rolling Eyes
Thats why said twonk heads have to be bewitched ! And horses are very handy at giving a kick up the jacksee, have you been clobbered by a solid iron horse shoe with a driving force of half a ton ?

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:56 am

Ive had a horse stand on my foot (more than once) bloody painful!!!  Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad 

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Post by Norc Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:47 pm

a horse bit my finger once... that hurt. (i had eaten chocolate and i guess the horse thought my finger was food)
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Post by Lancebloke Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:04 pm

Finger food....?
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Post by Forest Shepherd Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:51 pm

I've seen a horse kick someone (my mom) and break some of their ribs.
Horses can be dicks, even if it's the owner's fault. Raise hamsters instead!

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:08 pm

They certainly are hard to shift when they are standing on your foot, that I do know!  Mad 

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Post by azriel Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:48 pm

What ? hamsters ?  Shocked

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:58 pm

Hamsters and ferrets are another good reason for wearing a kilt. I cant think of anything worse than some small hairy thing clambering up inside your trouser leg- well maybe Halfy as I suppose- but nothing else!  Mad 

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:18 pm

Need a lore check please!!

A wiki entry says that 'arkenstone' and 'silmaril' share a root in Tolkiens languages- is this accurate or just a spurious wiki entry?

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Post by Elthir Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:54 am

Maybe it's a refernce to Tolkien's use of eorclanstánas for 'Silmarils' in an Old English translation of one of the early 'Silmarillion' texts [possibly one of the Annals, I can't recall which early text at the moment]?

I would have to see the entry in question I guess.
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Post by Orwell Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:16 am

Well, that's cool, Elthir. You really need to get a life, you know...Very Happy But no, best you stay attuned to all things Tolkien -- for our benefit. cheers

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:42 am

It wasnt much of an entry Elthir, hence my suspicion of it, all it said was that the two words were related in Tolkien's languages- no other explanation or any examples were given.

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Post by Elthir Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:12 am

Hmm, I guess one could call this a 'relationship' but Arkenstone is not a word from Tolkien's invented languages in any case, and must be seen as a translation within The Hobbit. JDR theorizes that Arkenstone, 'rather than a modernization of the Old English (...) could represent an anglicization of Old Norse.'

iarkna-steinn Elder Edda, eorcan-stan Old English, [postulated] Gothic airkna-stains [Jacob Grimm, Teutonic Mythology]

In any case the relationship meant in the Wiki, as far as I know anyway, would seem to be as I guessed: that Tolkien used the Old English Eorclanstanas 'precious or holy stones' to refer to the Silmarils, and in an Old English version of the Annals of Beleriand for example:

Morgoth... genom tha eorclanstanas Feanores 'Morgoth stole the Silmarils of Feanor'

Otherwise I cannot think of an Elvish base that leads us, in theory, to both words being related, such as for arguable example [forgive my lack of the proper diacritics], that the word Nom:
' [Nom] must be related to the Elvish bases NGOL- 'wise, wisdom, be wise' and NGOLOD- 'one of the wise folk, Gnome' as well as NOWO- 'think, form idea, imagine'; and Tolkien obviously devised these forms to imply a genetic connection with IE [Indo-European] gno- 'to know', the root of which led to the Greek [word written in characters I cannot produce] 'intelligence, thought'.

Editorial response to a letter reacting to Words And Devices, Vinyar Tengwar 19

That's a kind of relationship connecting Elvish [theoretical] bases to Primary World words.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:20 am

In depth and informative as always Elthir.
But it seems to thin a connection to me. I do think Tolkien used similar imagery, which as a writer is fair enough given he thought the Sil would never see the light of day (and he was right within his own lifetime) but beyond that I dont think he intended for there to be any connection between them, even in the language.
Any similarity of meaning drawn form a root owes more I think to hs using similar wording in his description nothing more.

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