Re: A Midsummer Nights Dream (in Forumshire)

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:36 pm

I was not writing about the real you- I dont know the real you- I wasnt writing about your real age- I couldnt even tell you what that was- I was writing about the character Mrs Figg who is an eel wrangler that, as has been noted, is over 150 years old.
Making a joke about her opinion to aging therefore as part of setting up a character arc seem a perfectly innocent and valid story techniques to me.
I dont see how its different from making jokes saying David only grows sexually suggestive vegetables, or that Norc is foul mouthed, or comparing my characters attempts at pouting to looking like a constipated dogs arse.
That all seems equally fair game to me.

by Mrs Figg Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:38 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have NEVER implied either directly or indirectly that it is ok to comment on my age and physical condition.- Mrs Figg

I didnt comment on your age or appearance- whoever you are- I have never met you or seen you that I know of it to make such a judgement- I was writing about a fictional character called Mrs Figg who eel wrangles and is of an unknown age but seems to have been about a while.
Further I was putting these Forumshire characters into an already existing play and giving them similar roles to the plays characters- so the Mrs Figg character has to have a (false) sense that she is not quite what she once was in order for her character to have some development and the story to have a point in that regard.
In just the same way it is necessary for the Petty character to be full of himself, wanting to play all the parts yet completely incompetent at any, lazy and a drunk- so as his arc can develop in parallel to the Figgs arc.
It had NOTHING whatsoever to do with any real people at all anywhere, ever.

I had always understood that was the premise on which everyone wrote their forumshire tales or newspapers.

Also the passage in question it is a general observation- not Figgs thoughts as shown by the fact all 3 of the more 'mature' ladies in the scene- Figg, Amarie and Azriel all share this view and all give Norc the frowning look for it.
So on that basis they should both be equally offended as you Mrs Figg.

justify it all you like. I told you I found it offensive and instead of having an ounce of humility and saying woops sorry (which would have avoided all this unpleasantness) you ploughed on regardless accusing me of defiling your art and Killing joy and happiness in the world. all it needed was for you to say, 'I dont understand your objections' (because you and everyone else obviously dont understand my objections) 'but I am sorry it hurt your feelings', and that would have been the end of it. shake hands and move on, but you obviously dont do sorry.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:44 pm

Saying sorry would mean I accepted that what I wrote was offensive to you and by implication that I knew what I was writing was offensive.
I completely reject that- I have in my opinion nothing in this case to say sorry about- I made use of the Figgs character in EXACTLY the same spirit as I do all the other Forumshire characters.
So in this case no, I wont say sorry because I dont feel I have anything at all to be sorry for in this instance.
It is your insistence and refusal to accept there was no offense meant or given, and that I set out to offend you by making personal remarks that I reject strongly here. I did not.

by Mrs Figg Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:49 pm

I actually thought I would be safe in Forumshire. I actually thought the bullshit from everyday life wouldnt follow me here. I really thought barbs and slights no matter how 'funny' to others wouldnt hurt me here. Obviously I was wrong. Even my fucking avatar gets judged by her imagined physical appearance, her age, her 'flaws'. All my adult life I have been judged on the way I look, you might think, wow go off at the deep end much? or how boring, or quit whinging, so I will, I am starting to bore myself.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:55 pm

It is safe in Forumshire Mrs Figg- the problem as I see it is you take the 'character' of Mrs Figg to be the real you- when it so clearly is not anything to do with the real you- and your avatar pic has nothing whatsoever to do with it- when I do think of it I tend to think of the one with the cats not your current one anyway.
Nor was the character in the story being judged on her looks, she was just lamenting the fact she was no longer 18- that is not a judgement. And it was view shared in the story by the two other older female characters too.

"accusing me of defiling your art and Killing joy and happiness in the world"- -Mrs Figg

Except that's not what I said- I said you had taken the joy out of finishing writing the rest for me- and that's perfectly true. I wrote something I hoped people would enjoy and came back on to find a personal attack accusing me of misogyny and perpetuating myths about women and attacking you personally. Those are not fun circumstances to write a comedy under.

I think what pains me most is that after all this time you think I would sit down to write something designed to hurt you.
Talk about judging- what does that say about your opinion of me?

by Eldorion Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Saying sorry would mean I accepted that what I wrote was offensive to you and by implication that I knew what I was writing was offensive.

I think you -- or anyone else in this situation -- could regret that something they wrote caused unintentional offense without admitting to anything more than that. Wink

Mrs Figg wrote:I actually thought I would be safe in Forumshire. I actually thought the bullshit from everyday life wouldnt follow me here. I really thought barbs and slights no matter how 'funny' to others wouldnt hurt me here. Obviously I was wrong. Even my fucking avatar gets judged by her imagined physical appearance, her age, her 'flaws'. All my adult life I have been judged on the way I look, you might think, wow go off at the deep end much? or how boring, or quit whinging, so I will, I am starting to bore myself.

No one is judging you, or even your avatar, Mrs Figg. I don't know what sort of things you deal with in everyday life that tint your perception of what goes on here (and that happens to all of us, we all bring our own perceptions here). But Petty's story was not about judging the fictional Figg. Frankly, there have been other borderline-unkind characterizations at people's expense in other stories here (not to mention posts that are actually directed at real people), but I don't think any of it is meant in particular seriousness. I know my comments, when I make them, are not.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:39 pm

could regret that something they wrote caused unintentional offense- Eldo

Unintentional yes Eldo, I do regret and am upset that Mrs Figg took offensive at it- but if I could go back an rewrite that passage I wouldnt change a word of it- I feel its not offensive, has no intention of offending, is not an offensive subject matter, is in keeping with the portrayal and use of everyone elses characters, and is entirely justified within the context of the story and the characters arc.
I also, even if I do say it myself, think it is a well written and well constructed passage with a lot of humour to it.

"Frankly, there have been other borderline-unkind characterizations at people's expense in other stories here "- Eldo

I have to admit this bugs me somewhat too, and goes someway to explaining my annoyance here- I have read far more cutting, far more pointed remarks in other peoples stories about folks on here (always in good humour of course, but still cutting) and not a peep from Mrs Figg. Yet its not the first time she has jumped down my throat over something I have written.
It feels unjustified, unfair and as if its just personal dislike being aimed at me.

by David H Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:49 pm

I hope I haven't given any offense Julia, and if I have I apologize. To me, and I think to the others here, what you look like in real life doesn't matter at all. It's your spirit and humor we enjoy.

In some of the stories Figgy has been 10 years old, in others 150, but there's a certain spark that links them. I don't get hung up on any one avatar, but if I were to choose one it would be the bright eyed lady with the cats, and she is ageless.

by Norc Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:05 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
David H wrote:I did understand, and I think I do understand. But I still would have assumed that by making jokes about your own age you were intentionally opening yourself up to friendly teasing, just as I knew when I first mentioned I was a farmer that I'd inevitably be teased about my livestock. Doesn't that make sense?

how does saying I am Victorian, ie over 150 years old lead to friendly teasing about my actual age? thats completely different. If I had made jokes about being a middle aged lady thats one thing, making jokes about being from another century is another. I fail to see the connection. you are a farmer, I am not actually Victorian.

Noone knows you're actual age, figg, that's the point!! And this is an alternative universe, alternativ to the already alternative univers of forumshire, it's an alternative univere insiee an alternative univers and it's based upon a shakespear piece. Why takenit seriosuly aimed at u as a real person in real life. No one here is implying u as being an ungly ogre, but u are clearly ab adult out of your teens right? Just like azriel and amarie. Why br so offended ? I fail to understand why people who in the first place from day one didn't have any complaints about being written about suddenly has a lot of issues about it. It's just for fun, nothing serious about it. And frankly, are u an eel wrangler in real life? Who wears leather underwear? No. Most likely not.

by Norc Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:07 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I was not writing about the real you- I dont know the real you- I wasnt writing about your real age- I couldnt even tell you what that was- I was writing about the character Mrs Figg who is an eel wrangler that, as has been noted, is over 150 years old.
Making a joke about her opinion to aging therefore as part of setting up a character arc seem a perfectly innocent and valid story techniques to me.
I dont see how its different from making jokes saying David only grows sexually suggestive vegetables, or that Norc is foul mouthed, or comparing my characters attempts at pouting to looking like a constipated dogs arse.
That all seems equally fair game to me.

I agree. It's just an interpretation in has no roots in reality. How can call you that and that, we don't know u.

by Norc Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:13 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I actually thought I would be safe in Forumshire. I actually thought the bullshit from everyday life wouldnt follow me here. I really thought barbs and slights no matter how 'funny' to others wouldnt hurt me here. Obviously I was wrong. Even my fucking avatar gets judged by her imagined physical appearance, her age, her 'flaws'. All my adult life I have been judged on the way I look, you might think, wow go off at the deep end much? or how boring, or quit whinging, so I will, I am starting to bore myself.

It's ofcourse ok to be offended, and maybe petty should be humble and say sorry cus he didn' mean to offend u, yet he did. I think petty might be a stubborn bastard right now, but i do understand why he refuses. But Julia, no one here knows u, and this has been said a lot, so how can we judge on you apearences, and your avatar is sexy.. What? Just.. Idk.. Don't take everything so srsly.. I doubt petty thinks you're an ogre...

by Norc Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:16 pm

And i do know how it is to be picked for looks and body pressure and all that shit, not aging of course, but i don't drag it all with me here, because here i am hiding behind an avatar named norc who looks like benedict cumberbatch. I am bring seen as childish, sweary, rude, obnocious, impolite, pouting u name it. But unlike u, i don't give a flying fuck about it, because i know who i am and it is fun to see oneself in an alternative universe. Alternative. Key worf. Alternative.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:19 pm

think petty might be a stubborn bastard right now,- Norc

There is some truth in that Norc- but I think there is a point of principle here.
There are loads of stories on here- creative corner has had a boom time of late- and I really dont want to be in the position of writing something fun then seriously having to go thorugh it all trying to work out if one bit or another might cause offence to someone.
And even if I did that I wouldnt have flagged up that passage anyway as I dont see any offense in it.

I agree with everything else you just said however.

by Norc Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:23 pm

Stubborn can be a good and a bad thing, i do see why u want to not say sorry, i said that somewhere too, i understand youre argument, i mean .. Everything that has ever been written here could offend people, depending on how people want to read it.

by Mrs Figg Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:49 pm

well I personally didnt find that passage funny clever or insightful, it seemed like the usual trite and tired reeling out of the 'middle aged woman = saggy titted has-been' comments that every woman sooner or later has to face. That patronizing pity (normally coming from men) that says with a smile, you aint a spring chicken any more, do you have to wear that skirt?. they are insidious and pervasive in society. its so entrenched people really cant see why its so offensive. But the basic position is that elderly men are admirable and elderly women are awful because what is the point of a post-menopausal woman? Old women get laughed at. I thought we had moved on. But dont mind me, its obviously all in my imagination.

by CC12 35 Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

it does ~help~ if offensive jokes are funny

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:55 pm

That patronizing pity (normally coming from men)- Mrs Figg

It was in this case written by a man- but I wouldnt say the comments were from a man- quite the opposite, I was definitely drawing on direct experience of women making those comments- just as Azriel did about herself on another thread.

" and elderly women are awful "- Mrs Figg

Yeah cause Ive spent 20 years of my life trying to improve and give the elderly the dignity and freedom they deserve, in a profession that is derided, blamed, put upon and severally under payed, because I think all elderly women are awful. Bit of a shit career choice if thats my thinking.

its obviously all in my imagination- Mrs Figg

In this case I think it mainly is- it certainly wasnt in my imagination when I wrote it- where I have explained several times the purpose of the passage was to create a story arc that fitted the character into a Midsummer Nights Dream.

by CC12 35 Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:59 pm

men can be very hurtful tho

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:00 pm

women too Cc, women too.

by CC12 35 Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:00 pm

when my teacher asked me if this boy in my class was bullying me i said it was fine because i liked rough boys

by azriel Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:03 pm

Grrr, you little pussy cat CC Smile

by Mrs Figg Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:57 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:That patronizing pity (normally coming from men)- Mrs Figg

It was in this case written by a man- but I wouldnt say the comments were from a man- quite the opposite, I was definitely drawing on direct experience of women making those comments- just as Azriel did about herself on another thread.

" and elderly women are awful "- Mrs Figg

Yeah cause Ive spent 20 years of my life trying to improve and give the elderly the dignity and freedom they deserve, in a profession that is derided, blamed, put upon and severally under payed, because I think all elderly women are awful. Bit of a shit career choice if thats my thinking.

its obviously all in my imagination- Mrs Figg

In this case I think it mainly is- it certainly wasnt in my imagination when I wrote it- where I have explained several times the purpose of the passage was to create a story arc that fitted the character into a Midsummer Nights Dream.

my comments were not directed at you, so you dont need to bring your job into this argument. they were general comments about life in general, they were not meant as a personal attack on you, otherwise I would have used the word 'Petty' in the sentence.
This just goes to show that if you write something without really thinking about the consequences you are going to stir up all sorts of shit-storms and deep seated feelings. trying to be funny has a price.

Eldo mentioned earlier that some of the stories in the Corner had been verging on the cruel, I would like to know if this was directed at me? because I do try hard not to offend people. my jokes are normally about things people have mentioned such as Lance and his Ribena fixation or some such thing, I do try never to be cruel, or nasty, otherwise whats the point.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:00 pm

I have never set out to be cruel or nasty either Mrs Figg, and I contend I have not been- but my writing has always been based on real life observations and things people say, no matter the genre as I think it gives a depth and truth to things that is otherwise lacking. And that is unlikely to change-- its how I write.

by Mrs Figg Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:03 pm

the question was it directed at me or what?

by Norc Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:09 pm

Omg this whole discussion Mad