Petty's Purist LotR Edits

Whoo! New revelation whilst doing my mega edit of how to greatly improve the Aragorn story of the film.
I changed the order in Rivendell and added back in a scene I had previously cut.
Now after the Council it goes to the scene from TT where Aragorn awakens to Arwen kissing him and he says "This is a dream." Its all in elvish from there. And as almost no one speaks elvish I figured I could get away with writing my own subtitles to it. So now its about Aragorn saying he cannot go into the Twilight. And Arwen speaking of her peoples land and her love of her father before finishing with her saying "I gave my love in hope, I still have that hope. Do not lose yours Estel." (She clearly says Estel three times so it had to be about hope).
Then into the grave scene with Aragorn and Elrond (pt1) cut to Bilbo giving sting to Frodo, back to Elrond telling Aragorn he will not leave Arwen here to die, then the reforging of Narsil and finally Aragorn trying to give the elfstone back to Arwen before leaving with the Fellowship.
This way the Rivendell scene, and the Aragorn/Arwen story is transformed, and with the changes made to the placing of the rest of it in RotK the focus with Aragorn stays on his love for Arwen.
I am so chuffed at how well it works!!! (Assuming you don't speak fluent elvish that is!)

Interesting! Any chance we might get to see it too, Petty?

Hopefully yes. But will be a big file is problem. The total running time is 8hours 24minutes. Not sure how that compares to adding all the normal EE's together but I reckon its a good bit shorter overall.

close to four hours shorter I think!

Blimey!
Makes it all the more annoying that if PJ had done the bloody thing right in the first place would have been time for Bombadil, Old Man Willow, Prince of Dol Amroth, Stone of Erech and the Scouring-and still had time to spare!

Darn tootin'!

Going to put up the Rivendell section from the mega-edit for comment whilst its still in the editor and can be changed. Should be up within next hour or so I will pm people where to get it.

edit-um will be slightly longer. My browser crashed taking the upload with it, having to start again!

Took longer than expected but the Rivendell section is now available for your analysis!
Check your pm's, and if you want to see it and dont get a pm then pm me.


I've included the entire Rivendell section. Council and all because I think its best to see the scenes in context.
On the commentary to the EE's the Coven express fears that the Rivendell section would grind the film to a halt and kill the momentum.
Personally I don't mind a slower pace if its still telling you something about the characters or the context they find themselves in. But what do you think, does this longer rivendell version kill the pace?
Or was Tolkkien right?
For me Rivendel is a place of stories. In the book there is the Hall of Fire and all the tales sung and told there. There is Gandalfs tale with saruman, Gloins story and more. So I think having it as a place of individual tales in the film works.

Just wacthed the Rivendell re-edit.

Love the Arwen Aragorn bits.... I think the new subtitles work really well and there is nothing in the acting that contradicts it. Did wonder why you have bilbo and the mithril vest where you do as it seems to break the flow a bit, i would have put it earlier.

In answer to the pacing question I quite enjoyed it as I would have loved the story sharing of the book to be in the film, even though I understand it was never likely to make it in. It made Rivendell feel more like the respite before the following storm that it feels like in the book. My only issue is that with the limitations on the clips you have to work with some of it feels a bit clunky, whereas if it had been filmed this way the scenes would have been more direct. funnily enough a lot of these issues would be less obvious if it were possible to re do the sound track

Final thought is that I really enjoyed the version of the sword reforging, made it more prominent!

I like!

(apologies, but haven't watched TT yet and still downloading ROTK in small bits)

Thanks for watching and commenting Kafria. Don't worry about the others- always best to watch when you are in the mood too rather than just to get it done so no rush.

Interesting point about the mithril scene- where were you thinking of? Moving to right before the council after the Aragorn/arwen bridge kiss or between the scene with Boromir and the sword and the Arwen scene. It might work in either of those places.
Problem is its handy having a scene to split the conversation with elrond/aragorn at the grave as those are two separate scenes which don't work stuck together (I've tried). If I don't have the mithril scene what else could go in there?

Your right about the choppy effect. Sadly its unavoidable in places. There are many cuts in the entire film where if you didnt know you wouldnt guess there was one, but when its big changes or scene reaaranging as the rivendell bit is its going to happen sadly.
Youre right too about the soundtrack- its the main giveaway- where possible i drop sound off or crossfade it with the next piece, but thats not always possible if the cut is right at the end of a spoken word. I would be great to have the original track layers with music, vocal and sound effects seperate, I reckon I could get it pretty seemless then.

Did a bit of tinkering and mucking about and a lot of swearing- and the result- I moved the mithril scene as you suggested Kafria and although it makes the scene with Aragorn/Elrond a bit abrupt in its change of conversation topic, it works better. It makes the whole after the Council bit all about Aragorn, Arwen, Elrond and the reforging.
As you thought this greatly improves the flow- so good call Kafria and thanks.
Between you and Ringdrotten I have now made several changes based on your suggestions and all have been improvements- exactly the sort of useful feedback I was hoping for- so thanks again.

I'm a bit curious Petty, did you move the scene where Bilbo gives Frodo the mithril shirt and his sword to before the council?

Kafria pretty much summed it all up, well done on the editing part and some brilliant subtitles you came up with - very nice Don't have anything to add to Kafria's response except the last scene where Aragorn gives Arwen that little nod and she's crying; that scene is so much more powerful now that she thinks she's seeing him for the last time before she leaves with the ships.

Thanks Ringdrotten.
Yeah I moved it to before the council, its between the scene with Aragorn/Boromir and the Aragorn/Arwen kiss on the bridge, right before the council.
So after the council is the 'bedroom' scene, the graveside scene, then into reforging Anduril, and then the final scene with Aragorn/Arwen right before he leaves.
Watching it beck the flow is better as the before the council focus is more on Frodo and Bilbo and after its about Aragorn, Arwen and Elrond. It keeps it more focused.

I can't take too much credit for the subtitles. The first conversation in the bedroom I got the dialogue from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. I just had to abbreviate it to make it fit as well as possible with the performance and the length of sentence.
But I did make up the conversation in the final scene.

I wonder, doesn't putting the shirt & sword scene before the council seem a bit odd? Before the council Frodo had no idea he would be going to Mordor, he thought he was going back to the Shire. I can't imagine Bilbo would think otherwise either, so why would Bilbo give Frodo a sword and an impenetrable mithril shirt? Why warn him about orcs if Frodo was only going back to the Shire?

I haven't seen your edit, so I wouldn't know how it works until I see it of course, just giving you my thoughts on it

Yes basically. It is too soon. But when watching it it doesn't feel like it. Partly I think because it fits into the narrative day; Frodo gets up about noon chats with Sam, early afternoon Gandalf talks with Elrond, mid afternoon Bilbo shows Frodo the Redbook, early evening (judging by the light) Aragorn meets Bormoir, mid evening Bilbo gives Frodo Sting. The scene fits very snuggly. Giving the impression Frodo has spent his day with Bilbo.

There's nothing specifically said that outright implies Bilbo is giving him the shirt and sting specifically to go to mordor in. He does say Sting glows when there are orcs around and at times like that my lad you have to be on your guard, or words to that effect. He doesnt say when you meet orcs. Its more a description of what Sting does.
As to why give it to him, well Bilbo's obviously not going to need them and even going back home to the shire better safe than sorry. Frodo did get stabbed on the way there after all.
The only post council point that is available is immediately after, but the shirt scene starts fast with immediate sound and dialogue, so I cant fade into it or dip the sound, and you really need something quiet coming out of the end of the council scene (PJ uses a pan down from trees immediately before the 1st bit of the grave scene.)

It could of course be that Bilbo are just passing them on, so to speak. He doesn't exactly need them anymore, so I can see it work. Looking forward to see it

I usually watch films with subtitles (old habit, don't really need them, but I feel a film is missing something without them), and if I remember correctly, Gandalf says (when the fight starts during the council of Elrond) "While you bicker amongst yourselves, Sauron's power grows" (according to the subtitles, that is). While watching your Rivendell edit without the subtitles, I thought I could hear Gandalf saying "Saruman's power grows" and not Sauron's. Is my hearing bad or are the subtitles wrong?

nope you are quite right Ringdrotten- noticed that too. Gandalf is talking about Saruman not Sauron. If you listen to that scene when the Council breaks into a fight, with headphones and dont watch the visuals, you will hear a lot of short basically 'rhubarb, rhubarb', phrases!

Changed the Rivendell bit again! I moved the mithril shirt to right after the Council, its a little abrupt but on reflection I think it makes more sense after the Council. And I think what Kafria was objecting to was it broke the flow being in the middle of the Aragorn/arwen stuff, its now right before it.

Ian MacKellen must've said the wrong name by mistake - if he didn't, then the script was bad.

Putting the mithril scene right after the council seems a good idea, good call if I may say so

Crikey Petty, you're a Wannabe Beard! five hundred posts...
Though, you do seem to post after youreself... maybe that is why.
Funny, you're a Wannabe Beard when the Beard doesn't have many posts at all!
Ah Well, he has pressing family issues!

The beard had over 3000 posts on the original forum, hence the Wannabe Beard rank

You are right Petty, my problem with the bilobo/mithril shirt scene was the break in the flow of the Aragon / Arwen stuff.

On the point about subtitles, Squach prefers to have them on when we watch programs and I agree that it can become quite addicitive and feel as if something is missing and it helps with muffled dialogue, but I find that I end up watching the subtitles, pre-empting waht is about to happen and don't watch the acting, so I am trying to use them less at the mo!

I agree that the subtitles sometimes distract you, and as a result you end up missing parts of the films. I still feel like something's missing without them, though, as I grew up with watching films with subtitles (had to read them to understand what was being said when I was younger!)

That is exactly my problem! I dont know what the actors say half the time! I know that you say they can be distracting, but i don't find them distracting at all! i hate it when someone cracks a joke and you don't even know what they asked!!

I agree about subtitles being useful but distracting- I preemptive read too when I have them on.
I left subtitles off the first Aragorn/Arwen bit on the bridge partly because they arent really saying anything and partly because, as with all the elvish bits, if theres an important bit PJ switches to english. But mainly I wanted a bit of elvish where you just listen to the beauty of the language and the sounds rather than being distracted by reading anything.