Afghanistan

by Eldorion Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:15 am

A common theme on BBC News recently has been the ongoing tension between Afghanistan and Pakistan. An Afghan statesman and peace negotiator with the Taliban was assassinated about two weeks ago and President Karzai of Afghanistan said that the killer was a Pakistani. There's also been longstanding tension between the governments of the two nations about the border and the militants who cross it every day. Then, just today, Afghanistan and India announced a "strategic partnership" that will last past the projected withdrawal of U.S. and NATO troops from Afghanistan in 2014. India is, of course, Pakistan's longstanding rival in and they periodically see border fighting.

From the Beeb:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-15161776 wrote:The leaders of Afghanistan and India have signed a strategic partnership agreement during a visit by President Hamid Karzai to Delhi.

Mr Karzai met Indian PM Manmohan Singh, who said violence in Afghanistan was undermining security in South Asia.

He also said that India would "stand by Afghanistan" when foreign troops withdraw from the country in 2014.

Mr Karzai's visit follows a series of attacks which have damaged ties between Kabul and India's rival, Pakistan.

Correspondents say the increasingly close relationship between Kabul and Delhi will be viewed with some suspicion by Pakistan, which sees Afghanistan as its backyard.

Close relationship

India is a major player in Afghanistan and has already pledged $2bn (£1.3bn) in assistance.

At a press conference in Delhi, Mr Singh said that the strategic partnership between the two countries will create an "institutional framework" so that India can help in Afghan "capacity building" in the areas of education, development and people-to-people contacts.

The pact is believed to include an Indian commitment to increase its training of Afghan security forces, including the police, although Mr Singh made no reference to that in his press conference remarks.

Mr Singh said that his Afghan counterpart had shown 'sagacious leadership'

The prime minister said that the two countries had also signed two agreements relating to Afghanistan's energy requirements which represented "a new dimension in economic relations" to enable Kabul to integrate more effectively with the Indian economy and other economies in South Asia.

He said that the people of India sympathised with Afghanistan as it sought to cope with "acts of terrorism... particularly the assassination of [peace envoy] Burhanuddin Rabbani".

"Rabbani was our guest in India in July and we were greatly encouraged by his vision," Mr Singh said.

"His brutal assassination should... strengthen our resolve to jointly confront the menace of terrorism."

President Karzai said that he was "grateful" for India's help as his country strives to overcome "violence and extremist activities".

In his statement, Mr Karzai reiterated that his government would work closely with the US, Europe and India to plan Afghanistan's future.

The BBC's Sanjoy Majumder says that Delhi is concerned about the security situation in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, especially as foreign troops begin to withdraw from the region.

India is one of Afghanistan's biggest donors, having pledged money for projects ranging from road construction to the building of the Afghan parliament - and is keen to play a bigger role.

Delhi has often accused Islamabad of links to groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Haqqani network that have carried out attacks in Afghanistan on Indian targets, including an assault on the Indian embassy in Kabul in July 2008, in which 40 people were killed.

This sounds like good news for Afghanistan, especially since it is ~~known~~ widely suspected that high-ranking Pakistani officials work with the Taliban. I am a bit nervous as to how it will affect violence and political tension in that area. I wonder if any other countries were consulted or informed of this ahead of time.

Thoughts on the new partnership or just that area of the world in general?

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:12 am

I sadly supsect there will be far more blood before there is peace. Part of the problem is that the Afghan govenment still doesn't control the entire country and parts of it are still under the same tribal leadership they were before. If India deals solely with the 'official' governement they risk alienating these groups who in turn will probably find they then have even mor epowerful allies in Pakistan.
Another part of the problem is the sort of warfare the Afghans are good at. For centuries they were famous for attacking in small groups and disappearing into the landscape. Then the CIA and its Communist paranoia came along and taught them how to use improvised explosives, how to carry out terrorist attacks. The result is a formidable opponent who its hard enough to even identify let alone fight and beat.
If Pakistan feels threatened by India and an Indian ally on its Afghan side too factions there will readily exploit tribal tensions and dislikes in the region to bring about instability. Western governments who ignore this possibility are kidding themselves.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:38 pm

President Karzai has announced he will step down in 2014 when NATO troops pull out. But his summin up of the ten years so far is not exactly encouraging.

"We've done terribly badly in providing security to the Afghan people and this is the greatest shortcoming of our government and of our international partners," he said.
"What we should do is provide better and a more predictable environment of security to the Afghan citizens and in that the international community and the Afghan government definitely have failed."

He also firmly pointed the finger of blame at Pakistan.

"On the overall policy of Pakistan toward Afghanistan and towards the Taliban, definitely, the Taliban will not be able to move a finger without Pakistani support," he said.

And retired Army General Stanley McChrystal estimated that the coalition was "a little better than" half way to achieving its military ambitions, adding that the US began the war with a "frighteningly simplistic" view.

$57bn (£37bn) in aid has been sent but suprisingly little of it seems to have trickled down to the people.
The UN says 10,000 civilians have died in violence in the past five years alone. And in the ten yer conflict 2,500 International Troops have been killed (with the US taking the brunt).

Compare all this with the words of President Obama.

"Thanks to the extraordinary service of these Americans, our citizens are safer and our nation is more secure. In delivering justice to Osama Bin Laden and many other al-Qaeda leaders, we are closer than ever to defeating al-Qaeda and its murderous network," Mr Obama said. "After a difficult decade, we are responsibly ending today's wars from a position of strength."

Just me or does it sound like they are talking about two completely different wars?

by **Orwell** Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:03 am

I feel sorry for the women of Afghanistan. They will never be free. They belong to a culture of primitives, their Government are already back-sliding on Female Emancipation, the Americans will retreat before Females get anything like Emancipation. It'll be straight back to being treated as the co-equals of cattle if you're a woman. And the Western Intelligentsia will continue to sit back in their Physical, Moral and Intellectual cowardice and not dare criticize Afghanistani Taliban Islam for the primitive oppressive (to women) version of Religion that it is. Of course, the Western Intelligentsia will continue to bleat about the all encompassing evil of America while being too scared to do anything at all, by word or deed, to help women become free in places like Afghanistan. The whole business makes me sick and sad and ashamed.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:39 am

In light of recent tragic events there Orwell the situation seems quite impossible. Karzai has no real power- as soon as we leave he is gone- he was our pick to lead and without direct military backing he is gone. I dont think if the military stayed another 10 years it would make any difference for women in that country.
Noone has ever won a war in that country- at best it seems you can keep your head above water but there is no progress being made here- we rebuild villages they destroy them, we offer women equal rights their government rejects them as soon as we turn our backs- and those who have family in our military have a right to ask what are my kids putting their lives on the line for here? You can't stay in someone else country forever in such numbers anyway, it is not practical to expect the tax payers to fund it indefinently at the expense of services at home (selfish maybe but true).
A newspaper coloumnist I was reading earlier put it well 'we are asking our troops to fight an invisible enemy in impossible terrain for an end result no one seems really sure of.'
Thats no strategy to win a war its just a slow painful way to lose one. (And worryingly the same description fits Vietnam).

by Mrs Figg Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:51 pm

A really horrible part of me (that I feel ashamed about) just wishes they would all stew in their own juice. They have made their own country a living hell and there is no way out. Maybe if they all kill each other they will go extinct. Thats my horrible voice, my reasonable compassionate voice says the killing is beyond sad and tragic and I wish peace would come for them.

by halfwise Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:04 pm

Anybody who wants to understand Afghanistan, or mistakenly thinks they understand it, would do well to read "West of Kabul, East of New York", written by someone who has his feet in both countries. He did not offer any clear solution (though noted that it would have to be an all or nothing approach), but did make it clear that no-one should mistake the Taliban for the true Afghanistan. And perhaps the true Afghanistan is worth saving.

by Turembar Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:07 pm

One of the things I most liked about Tolkien's works was how it could be a refuge, a place of healing from real life. But also, while I was there I somehow gained some understanding about the things I was fleeing or disturbed me. It is the same with many other books, films, music and pictures. These are just some lyrics that I stumbled accross & jumped out at me, as I sit, really saddened by events in Afganistan.

We are the warriors at the edge of time
We are Humanity's scythe to sweep this way and that
And cut the Enemy down as weeds
We are Humanity's spade to dig up the roots
wherever they have grown
We are Humanity's fire to burn the waste to the finest ash
We are the wind which will blow the ash away
As if it had never existed
We will destroy those enemies
But we must first know the enemies
And the enemies are the devils who hide in our minds
And make us less than happy
They make us less than happy
We are the warriors at the edge of time
We are the veterans of a savage truth
We are the lost
We are the last
We are the betrayed
We are the betrayed
We are betrayed

'Warriors' - By English band 'Hawkwind' 1975. Lyrics by Michael Moorcock.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:05 pm

Hawkwind! Blimey that takes me back.
In my misguided (but largely fun) youth I had an interesting experience with some mushrooms and a Hawkwind album (interesting because of the song with the voice on it telling you you feel an itch etc and for one of their operatic guitar bits that I was perceiving as a sea of many colours with waves responding to the music and I was standing in the midst of it whilst the music/waves broke over me). Odd thing the brain, even odder when full of shrooms!

by Mrs Figg Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:25 pm

its funny you should say that I had a funny experience with The PIL Album, some acid and Peveril Castle. It was 10 oclock at night, I had climbed up a cliff thing at the back of the castle cos the front entrance was closed, and I had a ghetto blaster on my back, I listened to 'Ease' at full belt and then ran about the castle thinking there were people in the shadows going "wwwhhhoooo", so I legged it down to the entrance and just about avoided getting caught by the custodian, what larks, but it was the 80s I think. Shocked

Steve Vai is a genius.

er I just noticed how high that cliff was, I must have been barking. Shocked

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by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:46 pm

High in more ways than one Mrs Figg. But Pil- blimey this is like memory lane-a mad colourful Dali style memory lane mind.

by Turembar Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:30 pm

Lol.... Just lol, for now. Laughing

Btw, I was just perusing older threads and noticed I have something in common with Mrs Figg. I was banned from another 'ring' forum myself. Strange business it was too, with me supplying the 'strange' part and they the business, I guess. I was on that forum about 3 years.

by Ally Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:52 pm

Yeah, it's a dangerous internet out there, open up any dodgy website and there's no knowing what random poker site you'll be swept off to!

by Ally Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:54 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:its funny you should say that I had a funny experience with The PIL Album, some acid and Peveril Castle. It was 10 oclock at night, I had climbed up a cliff thing at the back of the castle cos the front entrance was closed, and I had a ghetto blaster on my back, I listened to 'Ease' at full belt and then ran about the castle thinking there were people in the shadows going "wwwhhhoooo", so I legged in down to the entrance and just about avoided getting caught by the , what larks, but it was the 80s I think. Steve Vai is a genius.

er I just noticed how high that cliff was, I must have been barking.
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Best post here for awhile!

by **Orwell** Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:34 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:A really horrible part of me (that I feel ashamed about) just wishes they would all stew in their own juice. They have made their own country a living hell and there is no way out. Maybe if they all kill each other they will go extinct. Thats my horrible voice, my reasonable compassionate voice says the killing is beyond sad and tragic and I wish peace would come for them.

To quote John Lennon; "Woman is the nigger of the world." I don't care if the Patriarchs rot --- I feel sorry for my Sisters. They have no say in what they do. They're cattle. I don't see women as cattle.

by **Orwell** Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:35 pm

halfwise wrote:Anybody who wants to understand Afghanistan, or mistakenly thinks they understand it, would do well to read "West of Kabul, East of New York", written by someone who has his feet in both countries. He did not offer any clear solution (though noted that it would have to be an all or nothing approach), but did make it clear that no-one should mistake the Taliban for the true Afghanistan. And perhaps the true Afghanistan is worth saving.

Read "Reading Loilta in Tehran"," too.

by **Orwell** Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:36 pm

Turembar wrote:One of the things I most liked about Tolkien's works was how it could be a refuge, a place of healing from real life. But also, while I was there I somehow gained some understanding about the things I was fleeing or disturbed me. It is the same with many other books, films, music and pictures. These are just some lyrics that I stumbled accross & jumped out at me, as I sit, really saddened by events in Afganistan.

We are the warriors at the edge of time
We are Humanity's scythe to sweep this way and that
And cut the Enemy down as weeds
We are Humanity's spade to dig up the roots
wherever they have grown
We are Humanity's fire to burn the waste to the finest ash
We are the wind which will blow the ash away
As if it had never existed
We will destroy those enemies
But we must first know the enemies
And the enemies are the devils who hide in our minds
And make us less than happy
They make us less than happy
We are the warriors at the edge of time
We are the veterans of a savage truth
We are the lost
We are the last
We are the betrayed
We are the betrayed
We are betrayed

'Warriors' - By English band 'Hawkwind' 1975. Lyrics by Michael Moorcock.

Michael Moorcock, "Dancers at the End of Time" trilogy. One of my favorite books. (Hawkwind were a bit corny though. Laughing

)

by Turembar Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:26 am

Orwell wrote:
Michael Moorcock, "Dancers at the End of Time" trilogy. One of my favorite books. (Hawkwind were a bit corny though. )

I'll have to keep that series in mind.

Yes, agreed on the music. Laughing

It was a criticism of the Classical Rock genre in general, that it contained an element of pretentiousness... though I guess that was predictable considering what styles they were trying to fuse together. For me it all comes down to individual songs, for even in the most predictable genres, I can find a few that I really like.

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