Rioting in the UK

16,000 police deployed in London tonight. Wolverhapmpton, the West Midlands, Salford, Manchester, West Bromich all have trouble, buildings and vechiles on fire. So far and its only 20:50 and the suns not even set yet. Tongiht might be interesting.

More info on the circumstances of the man shot by the police which sparked all this- it seems he was in possession of an illegal firearm. It was not used (whether it was even drawn has not been stated yet). A bullet which was embedded in a police radio, it is a bullet fired from a police gun, so amongst other questions why one police man very nearly shot another needs answering.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:A bullet which was embedded in a police radio, it is a bullet fired from a police gun, so amongst other questions why one police man very nearly shot another needs answering.

Cops are people not androids - who knows, maybe it was quite a shock when a (routine?) check became gun day and their day turned to shit? No one I know knows how they'll react or cope when the shit hits the fan. Mind, I wasn't there. The cops were probably just incompetent as well as evilly racist - like ell cops are, according to the prevailing view here...

They were a special armed group who were specifically out to stop the cab with that guy in it- which is why the fact they came so close to shooting each other struck me as odd.They already he thought he had a gun. There was no suprise here it was not just police routinely stopping someone and him pulling a gun on them. If you read my longer post above you will find I have shown much sympathy with the plight of th epolice too in this.

mmm... Iknow this is a Serious Thread, but I do feel a need to say, "Rioting in the UK" is a great song title.

Itis but bit close to Anarchy in the UK.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:They were a special armed group who were specifically out to stop the cab with that guy in it- which is why the fact they came so close to shooting each other struck me as odd.They already he thought he had a gun. There was no suprise here it was not just police routinely stopping someone and him pulling a gun on them. If you read my longer post above you will find I have shown much sympathy with the plight of th epolice too in this.

As you know by now, I don't read long posts, just skim key words and react, like all honest reactionaries do, Petty.

Even highly trained cops don't know how they'll react "outside" the training cocoon, out in the "real" world. Things are quite different when it's not a target or a dummy who can't shoot back at you. (Back soon gotta deliver kid to school!)

So, quiet in London, but opportunistic looting and vandalism in other places tonight.

I think the incredible thing is that actually the majority comment is horror, disbelief and disgust. Equally a number pointing out that it isn't just youngsters, but folk in their 30's and 40's too. No doubt some are out for what they can get, one beeb reporter tweeted live that people with bags are following them rund asking where the looting is, so they can go help themselves!

(Oh and heard the 'if you don't respect us we not goona respect them' excuse on one of the vox pops!)

Edit - to add
Further to the comment on youngsters and the boundaries set at home - saw this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14462102

head commenting on the questions some paents should be asking themselves, police also on the news saying that many of those that are out are very young and parents should be keeping their kids home!

I heard earlier a cmmentary that broke down to, these people have little, money or prospects, dont feel part of the 'Big Scoiety' and think the wealthy are just exploiting everyone and so feel justified in stealing from them.
And whilst much of what is going on seems to have little to do with that in my view I do have some sympathy for the underlying view. I read in the paper this week a footballer gets a week, even if he is not in the team and doesn't kick a ball, more than 4 times my annual salary, and if he does get picked he gets an extra 5 grand on top! And above that we have the banks who put us in this mess then took huge amounts of our money to save their companies are awarding themselves millions in bonuses and making billins in profits. SOmething has to, and should give.

I listened to two seventeen year olds on the radio in the car. They had damaged a few things, grabbed a few things, and had great fun, while showing "the rich" that they could do what they wanted to, being Working Class girls. They were part of attacks on small busineses. I had a business for about 18 months. A small plant nursery. I lost something like a hundred thousand dollars of hard earned savings (not blaming anyone else for that, business is a risk) but the idea I might be thought of as "the rich" is rather surprising. Mind you, wage earners used to often come into my business (which was on it's knees) and ask how things were going. When I mentioned times were tough, they gave me a look of, "Yeah, you would say that." Luckilly, my wife was working as a wage earner, so we could pay our mortgage and still eat. After my business went bottom up, we paid off further business debts for a few years. It's not always easy being "rich". I still have a mortgage (we have a small house and two teenagers to feed and educate), but I confess to feeling "rich" compared to when I was trying to achieve something and not rely on others to employ me. Tangential thinking again. Rioters suck.

I agree with you Orwell but there are still huge and morally indefensible differences in how society values and feels it should reward its members. If as Cameron want sus to believe "We are all in this together" then those at the top have to stop just taking.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I agree with you Orwell but there are still huge and morally indefensible differences in how society values and feels it should reward its members. If as Cameron want sus to believe "We are all in this together" then those at the top have to stop just taking.

This is the trouble. Millions of people live in the UK (and other countries too, btw) and you can mount the case that each and every one of them is disenfranchised by the Big Society in some way. The Big Society don't exist, just various lobby groups with greater or lesser power, and individuals who jump on any (large or small) bandwagon as the mood takes them.

London so far seems to be relatively quiet, less so other places. The BBC news site list the following for the night so far;

"Greater Manchester Police Assistant Chief Constable Garry Shewan said his force had faced "extraordinary levels of violence from groups of criminals intent on committing widespread disorder."
Some 23 people have been charged in the West Midlands with a total of 229 arrests following sporadic disorder in Wolverhampton, while youths have smashed shop windows and set cars alight in nearby West Bromwich.
In Birmingham, riot police have surrounded the Mailbox, the city's high-end shopping centre, following the disturbances seen in the area on Monday night. Some 500 officers are on duty in the centre on Tuesday evening.
Canning Circus police station in central Nottingham was firebombed by a male gang on Tuesday evening.
In Liverpool, Merseyside Police have arrested 44 people in relation to disorder in the city."

And casualities so far on th epolice side are;

"Some 111 Met officers have suffered injuries including serious head and eye wounds, cuts and fractured bones after being attacked by rioters wielding bottles, planks, bricks and even driving cars at them."

Less trouble in London, more in other cities in England. And how has Scotland reacted to this? Well social media is being used to organize stuff here too- 'not a riot' parties!! Let the Buckie flow! (And the Edinburgh Fringe Festival starts today- maybe we will get mimed riots on the streets of Edinburgh!!)
And First Minister Alex Salmond has sent the poor English, riot cops and equipment, he also said ""Obviously we've got an obligation to help if we can and that's what's being done."
The first minister said meetings had taken place in Scotland to assess how to deal with any problems if they arose in Scotland, but added that he thought it was unhelpful to portray events as UK riots.
Now seems to me our First Minister has been helpful, offered aid and gently pointed out these are not UK riots at this point. And how did the English govt react to this? "Scotland Office minister David Mundell said Mr Salmond's tone was "unhelpful" and he accused the first minister of "trying to make political capital out of a terrible situation".
Sod yuse then. Burn on yir own! We've git parties tae oragnize! Yi ungrateful wee Sassenach!


I also note the Education Secretary, the 'makes my skin crawl every time I see him Groves', seems to be laying quite a bit of the blame on teachers and schools. See its all your fault Kafria! (Time to cross that border permenently and come and join us up here in a land that still has some hope left).

edit add- I see on BBC news single mothers are getting the blame too "a young girl leaving school with no qualifications is best off just getting pregnant"- a yes they dont half have it easy these single mothers (it IS all your fault Kafria!!!! )

I also note the Education Secretary, the 'makes my skin crawl every time I see him Groves', seems to be laying quite a bit of the blame on teachers and schools. See its all your fault Kafria! (Time to cross that border permenently and come and join us up here in a land that still has some hope left).

Of course, it always is!
I mean in six hours a day for six half terms (of six-seven weeks) we can compensate for low income, little care, no leadership,few aspirations, family problems, rows with their mates and all the other ills they face, in class sizes of 30 (which equates to less than 10 mins of one on one time if the members of staf manage to spend some time with each pupil each lesson) - vent over!

edit add- I see on BBC news single mothers are getting the blame too "a young girl leaving school with no qualifications is best off just getting pregnant"- a yes they dont half have it easy these single mothers (it IS all your fault Kafria!!!! :shocked )

(cos all single mums are those who left school with no qualification!)

Guilty as charged, who needs a bloke messing thing up?

"who needs a bloke messing thing up?"

Bet you'd happily let Sean Bean mess things up though!

Ah well! Yes that's adifferent matter entirely

I blame society. Blaming individuals for their own actions is silly and a cop-out (apparently) and certainly not fashionable according to idle (but vocal) bystanders.

"Somethin' should be done about the Government," says a righteous modern angry citizen. (Translation: "I have all care and no responsibility, thank you very much.")

I think under all this, and even under the simple desire to nick a tv or ten there may be more going on. They have a point these youths in some respects- the point being the system does not work. I grew up being told if I worked hard, kept out of trouble, did my bit society would reward that. In actual fact I get paid just enough to be constantly on the breadline and struggling, every time I start to get a little ahead they raise taxes just enough so I go back where I was (or a little worse), I have no idea when I will get to retire as they keep shifting the goalposts and its unlikely I will have a pension that's worth anything and my retirement if I make it that far is likely to be spent in even greater poverty and hardship than I currently have. Add in escalating fuel and food costs and working hard, keeping out of trouble and keeping my head down has left me worse off than I was. So these kids have a point- why even take part?

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I think under all this, and even under the simple desire to nick a tv or ten there may be more going on. They have a point these youths in some respects- the point being the system does not work. I grew up being told if I worked hard, kept out of trouble, did my bit society would reward that. In actual fact I get paid just enough to be constantly on the breadline and struggling, every time I start to get a little ahead they raise taxes just enough so I go back where I was (or a little worse), I have no idea when I will get to retire as they keep shifting the goalposts and its unlikely I will have a pension that's worth anything and my retirement if I make it that far is likely to be spent in even greater poverty and hardship than I currently have. Add in escalating fuel and food costs and working hard, keeping out of trouble and keeping my head down has left me worse off than I was. So these kids have a point- why even take part?

You've actually got it better than a lot of folk though, and if society fails altogether, you'll probably be even worse off. And if the whole of Western Society is in ruins, there probably wont even be enough cats to go around, not to mention the Nazis or Stalinists taking over.

David Cameron said today that our society was sick. I think he is right about that, I think a society which pays some people huge sums of money for being a celebrity and leaves people who do essential tasks for the welfare of others in society on the breadline probably is sick. I think increasing taxes such as VAT which hit the poorest hardest in order to bail out millionares is sick. I think our political class taking bungs and fidling expenses is sick. I think our police selling private information to the press for backhanders is sick. I think cutting funds to oyouth clubs and project to help the young whlst continuing to subside opera and ballet is sick.
And I think there is probably something amiss when the governemtn cabinet of the day consist almost exclusively of multi millionares who all graduated form the same two schools, thats a sickness too.

I don't accept the argument you could be eating sh*t so dont complain that your only eating mud.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:David Cameron said today that our society was sick. I think he is right about that, I think a society which pays some people huge sums of money for being a celebrity and leaves people who do essential tasks for the welfare of others in society on the breadline probably is sick. I think increasing taxes such as VAT which hit the poorest hardest in order to bail out millionares is sick. I think our political class taking bungs and fidling expenses is sick. I think our police selling private information to the press for backhanders is sick. I think cutting funds to oyouth clubs and project to help the young whlst continuing to subside opera and ballet is sick.
And I think there is probably something amiss when the governemtn cabinet of the day consist almost exclusively of multi millionares who all graduated form the same two schools, thats a sickness too.

I don't accept the argument you could be eating sh*t so dont complain that your only eating mud.

I think anyone breaking laws is sick, even when we, as individuals, break little ones. The bigger the break, the sicker, I think. None of us are innnocent, though. Yeah, we break "minor" laws we don't agree with, that's excluded, because that's okay. Mind, in principle that makes me agree that, taking into account individual freedom, folk can break Big Rules, too.

Oh yes, I'm jealous of the filthy rich. They should share it around a bit more.

I am not coming from a position of jealously so much as incrediluity. When politicians accuse sections of the poor of being sick whilst upholding, promoting and mainting a system which is morally highly dubious its shaky ground all round.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I am not coming from a position of jealously so much as incrediluity. When politicians accuse sections of the poor of being sick whilst upholding, promoting and mainting a system which is morally highly dubious its shaky ground all round.

I don't know that the system is necessarily "morally highly dubious", it's people saying one thing and doing another is what causes the real problems. (Mind you, I don't agree with much of the said "morals" you refer to - too many come from God and not from actual real people thinking things out for themselves, but that's another debate entirely).

I'm suddenly thinking of some things my Mum has said.

"The strong should look after the weak."

"The rich should look after the poor."

"My eighth child is the handsomest, wisest and most talented of my progeny, as well as humblest." (At least, she thinks this last one, I'm sure, but she doesn't want to cause sibling rivalry by saying it out loud).

The above two "Little Laws" are ones I'm sure most people would agree with, but few of us would care to obey. (The third statement is a worthy statement, and clearly accurate).

As a care wirker I am often the poor looking after the rich so that CAN'T be right.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:As a care wirker I am often the poor looking after the rich so that CAN'T be right.

You could - and I'm not "suggesting", I'm just raising "hypotheticallities" in discussion - you could go raiding these rich folks accounts, or persuae them to include you in their wills before they (sometimes unexpectedly) die. I've heard Careworkers (the wealthier ones) often do that. Not that I would cast nasturtians, mind.