Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[halfwise]

You'll have to explain the difference between shelling and a rocket. Are you saying Hamas can afford rockets but not artillery? I'd think the broken windows and burned cars would be more likely from a rocket explosion.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Im going on the evidence the IDF presented - they claim it cannot have been them as if it was them there would be craters from shelling. And as there are no such craters, ergo it wasn't them. They claim instead the explosion was caused by a militants rocket (not from Hamas but another group) gone awry, that landed on the hospital- and it was mainly the fuel section which exploded - thus such a weapon would produce no crater.
Yet there is at least at one crater at the very sight of the explosion- where if Israel's version is true, there should be no crater as an exploding rocket doesn't leave any craters. But shelling of the type being carried out by Israel does. }}

[halfwise]

that's not much of a crater. If that was what destroyed the hospital and killed 500 people you'd expect something significant. From what I've read rockets actually carry less explosive because the payload is mainly fuel; artillery shells are more explosive. But I don't understand why there'd be a crater if a building is hit: doesn't seem like a very strong argument. If they had direction of impact that would say more.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ If youre shelling your firing more than one thing, thats just where one hit outside the building in the carpark. As to payload, if I was planning to bomb a hospital in an obvious war crime but to blame it on the enemy, I'd lower the explosive force of the shells too to closer match those of a rocket payload. But if it was a rocket, as Israel claim there should not be any craters at all. They don't leave craters. Only shelling does. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I thought Bidens speech was interesting and possibly telling, reading between the lines (which you nearly always have to with politicians). I think had the US been 100% convinced it was not Israel that speech would have been slightly different. As it was, there was a significant passage on not letting rage take over and a reminder to Netanyahu personally to 'observe the laws of war'. I just don't feel that line would have been in still if America was totally convinced Israel already was following the laws of war. It seems to me like a politically worded veiled warning to Israel. }}

[halfwise]

Oh Israel was outright not obeying the laws of war by not letting humanitarian supplies in. I think it could have been worded stronger but at least Israel's #1 ally is saying something.

[halfwise]

{{ If youre shelling your firing more than one thing, thats just where one hit outside the building in the carpark. As to payload, if I was planning to bomb a hospital in an obvious war crime but to blame it on the enemy, I'd lower the explosive force of the shells too to closer match those of a rocket payload. But if it was a rocket, as Israel claim there should not be any craters at all. They don't leave craters. Only shelling does. }}

I wouldn't go so far as to say Israel bombed a hospital just to blame on Hamas. To be blunt that's a ridiculous statement: what do they have to gain from it? They could have accidentally bombed a hospital and now are trying to cover up - that makes sense. The previous nearby shells are because they want everyone out of the zone they plan to attack so they don't have to worry about who they hit, and so Hamas cannot use the hospital as human shields. But they gain exactly nothing from actually bombing the hospital.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Dead Palestinians is what they gain, that, harshly, seems to be the aim far as I can tell - there is no excuse for how they have treated civilians thus far, against all the rules of warfare, besides they want as many to die as possible, it's the only logical explanation for their actions - set up humanitarian corridors, bomb them, tell everyone to go to the southern crossing, then close it, then bomb it too. Cut off water, medicine, power and food to 2.1 million civilians, then trap them there whilst continuingly shelling infrastructure, medical centres and UN and WHO centres, anywhere they can get safety and help whilst denying there even is a humanitarian crisis. Force or compel under threat of violence the closure of hospitals in full knowledge those on life support or babies in incubators will be killed as a result, and ensuring there is nowhere for those wounded by Israeli shelling to go for treatment, increasing deaths. What is the aim of all this if not to kill as many Palestinians as possible while they can? If you take in Israel's strategy and actions and how they have conducted themselves throughout, the aim seems obvious. I think revenge, and bloodlust and long simmering festering hatred of the other is behind it. Unleashed by the most right-wing, tyrannical, openly Palestinian-hating religious zealots led government Israel has ever had. I've been banging on here for ages about how unhinged this Israeli government is and I fear now we see just how far they will go. There is no justification for their actions. Just as there was none for Hamas.

If Putin had committed just one of these acts - mass shelling of residential civilian homes, force relocation of people, deprivation of basic life requiring needs, destruction of UN and WHO buildings, bombing designated civilian safe zones, in Ukraine the outrage from the West would be only be outdone by the speed of the sanctions and military response.

And to further the killing of Palestinians the US, presumably on behalf of their ally Israel, just used its UN veto power to veto a resolution that not only openly condemned Hamas, as the US had asked for, but only sought 'pauses for humanitarian aid'.

As a result of the veto there will be no humanitarian aid for Palestinians. America once more betraying its own words with its actions.

'The veto was met with critical voices including Brazil's ambassador to the UN Sergio Franca Danese who said “silence and inaction prevailed…to no one’s true, long-term interest”.
Russia accused the United States of “hypocrisy and double standards", while China’s ambassador said the country was shocked and disheartened at the veto.
Along with China, the UAE also said the draft resolution should have called for a ceasefire because “each passing hour made a mockery of international humanitarian law” - the text simply called for humanitarian pauses.'- BBC

So why did the US veto humanitarian pauses? The official excuse? They were 'disappointed the resolution made no mention of Israel's right to self-defence'. (ie it didn't protect Israel from later prosecution for war crimes of which they are 100% already guilty)
And for that political reason the US veto's humanitarian aid. With the only possible result, more dead Palestinian civilians.
I feel more and more like I'm watching a slow moving genocide in which we the West are aiding and abetting in our lack of condemnation or actions to prevent it. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Good to see the UAE pushing back against America, an ally, after that veto, especially calling out the US for taking up Israel's propaganda of linking in the public mind Hamas and ISIS.

'The Biden administration’s attempt to link the Hamas with the Islamic State Group has been implicitly criticized by a close Arab ally.
The US has adopted Israeli language calling the Hamas rampage “ISIS-like”.
They suggest the "sheer evil" of the attack means it is unrelated to longstanding frustrations about Israeli occupation and the grinding misery of the 16-year blockade of Gaza, also imposed by Egypt.
'But, the UN ambassador of the UAE, Luna Nusseibeh, said it is important not to lose sight of the context of the crisis, “however convenient.”...“the kindling was already there,” she said, “fuelled by decades of violent dehumanisation, dispossession and despair".
She warned security council members not to disregard “the longest going occupation in the world today of a people who do not wish to be ruled and have been let down again, and again, and again by all of us.” - BBC }}

[halfwise]

I can't defend that veto, though I understand the subtlety of what is being asked for.

And it's true that Putin would be swiftly condemned and sanctioned, but he's a known killer.

But you can't call the Israelis bloodthirsty cold blooded killers the same way you can Putin. They are trying to get their hostages back, and when it was pointed out to them that starving millions of Palestinians not only wouldn't work but was condemned by the world, they at least partially relented. You wouldn't get that from Putin. Yes, the current Israeli government is unhinged, but at least they go through the motions like warning the populace to evacuate, even though it's an impossible task. Wouldn't get that from Putin.

They wouldn't shell a hospital just to kill more Palestinians. You can lay a lot at their feet, but not that.

Yes I agree they are committing war crimes and being shielded from it, but it's a different level. I'd put them between the war crimes of America and Putin, not equal to either.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ As with all things political my strategy is the same, pay some but little attention to the words, and a lot of attention to the actions. It's in what people, or countries do, they reveal their intentions, eventually.

Putin is a known killer, but arguably so is Israel if you look at the very lengthy list of civilians killed during the illegal occupation, unjustifiably by the IDF or by Israeli settlers. And the long list of failure to investigate or find guilty parties among the IDF when it happens. They talk a good game, but their actions speak to a different attitude.

I would argue in comparison to how we have seen Israel act Putin has in fact been far the less bloodthirsty of the two nations- Israel have taken more civilian lives in the week since Hamas attacked than the entire civilian casualties in Ukraine so far.

And whilst Israel has said in words aid will be allowed through to southern Gaza, its still not open yet and there still is no aid going through. Actions not words. I am doubtful any aid will get through any time soon, or if it does that it's anything more than a token trickle.

As to warning the populace, if Putin announced tomorrow he was going to level Kiev, but he'd give the people a week to get out, the West wouldn't be patting him on the back saying 'fair play at least he gave them a warning'. The real difference is so far Putin has done no such actions, Israel have.

I rather find it rather Orwellian when we in the West don't see our own sins whilst accusing our enemy of the same sins. Its somehow not the same if it's us doing it. But it is. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Curious statement just released by the UK PM's office in his name, curious in that like the earlier US statement there is something in the careful wording does not give me confidence that our intelligence agency are convinced Israel was not behind the hospital attack- }}

“Every civilian death is a tragedy. And too many lives have been lost following Hamas’ horrific act of terror. The attack on Al-Ahli Hospital should be a watershed moment for leaders in the region and across the world to come together to avoid further dangerous escalation of conflict. I will ensure the UK is at the forefront of this effort.”

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ The BBC have had a specialist in munitions and explosives studying all the info abut the hospital since it happened, and he's reached his conclusion, sort of. }}

'Initial evidence from the explosion at Gaza's Al-Ahli al-Arabi hospital yesterday appeared to be "inconsistent with an airstrike" and "far more consistent with a small projectile failing", says Nathan Ruser, an expert from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute... but he added that the evidence was 'not conclusive''...Ruser added that's it's "incredibly tricky" to get reliable information out of Gaza, and the amount of disinformation around the conflict is "almost staggering".
He said both sides "have a track record of not necessarily providing the honest truth" and although information from journalists on the ground has helped add to the picture, "I don't think we'll ever know exactly what happened".- BBC

[halfwise]

I just saw national news with an analysis.

1. Video with the sound before the explosion sounds like a rocket, not artillery
2. The small crater shown with burned cars surrounding it is consistent with a rocket puncture followed by burning fuel. An explosive would have made a larger crater with the cars blown away.

What I don't understand is how an explosion that didn't blow the cars away could have killed 500 unless there was a firestorm from the fuel.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I assume the type of injuries would help analysis that. If was a firestorm that should be fairly easy to determine compared to explosive. There were apparently about 1000 people seeking refuge in that car park/space shown in the photos which explains the number of dead. }}

[halfwise]

Ah, so it wasn't the hospital building itself.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ From what I can tell its some sort of courtyard, open space within the hospital complex. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Interestingly the UK government, unlike Israels and the US, have not yet made a determination on who bombed the hospital, and Israel is seemingly trying to downplay the incident, saying it was only dozens injured not hundreds. But that contradicts reports made from the scene by journalists who spoke to Doctors in the hospital and reported body parts were still being collected over a day later.

Well the aid deal is quickly becoming a farce. The UN says it needs at least 100 trucks of aid to get through to make any real difference, there are 120 waiting to get in.
Israel says it will let in the 20. Says it will, as the crossing is still not open.

'Speaking to the BBC's Newshour, Egypt's Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry said that was because the crossing had been subject to four aerial bombardments, and that there had been no authorisation for the safe passage of lorries and trucks into Gaza. "I would hope there would be a determination as to why the crossing is being bombarded..." The exact timeline on when aid will get to those who need it remains unclear. The road on the Rafah crossing requires repairs before any trucks are able enter.- BBC

Good plan Israel, agree to allow aid through the crossing, bombard the crossing making the road impassable for the aid, then open the border and say its nothing to do with you, borders open to aid as agreed. }}

[halfwise]

It's incomprehensible Israel would only allow 20 in. That IS looking like deliberate malignancy.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ America has released a statement saying the crossing for 20 trucks will open TOMORROW, after they fix 'potholes' in the road! If this wasn't so appallingly tragic that'd actually be funny. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ 'The Egyptian president, Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, and Jordan's King Abdullah have condemned what they called the "collective punishment" of Palestinians in Gaza after a meeting in Cairo to discuss the war.'

Thats an open accusation of war crimes. Not before time, there have been rumblings but nothing this blunt or official.

Iran earlier also released a statement warning that if Israel carry on as they are groups outside their immediate control ie Hezbollah and such would take matters into their own hands. and that's the real risk here now, that Arab outrage grows so much against whats happening to Palestinians that it won't matter what the governments say, they won't be able to stop it. }}

[halfwise]

still not definitive but getting closer.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/video-shows-rocket-fired-gaza-020950409.html

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Border is still closed, not a single truck has moved, not one scrap of aid has been allowed in. Israel bombed the crap out of it and the roads impassable- exactly as I said they would do.

Part of the Israeli problem Halfy is they cannot be trusted any more than Hamas can when it comes to what they say. Here for example is their description of the Church that was hit in Gaza- 'The Israel Defense Forces told the AFP news agency its fighter jets had hit a command and control centre involved in launching rockets and mortars toward Israel, and as a result, "a wall of a church in the area was damaged".

And here's the damaged wall! -



There were 18 folk, now dead, sheltering in that Church when Israel blew it to bits.

This is of course, as the Greek Orthodox Church has said, another war crime.

Analysts at the BBC are warning of an increasing risk of western allied powers in the region losing control of their own people as anger at Palestinian deaths grows and that groups such as Hezbollah may not want to actually get involved in escalating it, but that if Israel does not stop killing soon Hezbollah will be forced by pressure from the people to act anyway.}}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Ill be surprised if they let any aid in tomorrow either, I'm not encouraged by the words of the Israeli official who sounded like he couldn't care, 'a senior Israeli official told the BBC there were "ongoing issues which are being solved", adding that there was “a good chance" the 20 trucks would enter Gaza tomorrow.'
A 'good chance'? Aid was supposed to being going through already and every hour more Palestinians die as a result of the lack of help. The death toll among Palestinian civilians is now over 4000 with the numbers of injured way outstripping that and the actions Israel takes seems designed to let more Palestinians die, as many as possible before anyone can get to them to help. And 20 trucks is not even a drop in the ocean, the UN says it needs 100 going through, a day. }}

{{ edit add- The Egyptian Foreign Ministry is pushing back on US reports Egypt is the reason the border is not open, 'the ministry's spokesman assigned blame to Israel for hitting Rafah with airstrikes and for allegedly refusing aid to enter the Gaza Strip. Egyptian authorities have continually said that they did not close the Rafah border, but it that is not functioning due to the damage inflicted by Israeli airstrikes.'- Fox

If there is any doubt left Israel dont want help to reach Palestinian civilians here it is in plain words. Israel is the reason the border is closed. Israel is bombing the safe zone and border crossing. These are war crimes.}}

[halfwise]

There's no doubt not letting aid in is a war crime.