Merry Christmas - 2017

"And then you find that love is not just an emotion so much as a promise (quoting from Petty's Dr Who quotes)." - Halfwise

THIS is beautiful.

So when I give Norc advice, it's based on recent realization.  And all of you youngsters are doing great in beginning to come to grips with your various problems in your 20s.   You'll all be just fine. - Halfwise

trues, this self-ransacking and realiziation is painfully normal.. and given what you guys share abuot your background/childhood, totally understandable.. one can be bitter or crippled and all that, but the way forward and the future, you actually can choose yourself (Imagine that!)

Norc is possibly the least screwed up person on the board.  Go forth and conquer; one little break-up is chicken feed.
HAHA.. thanks, beginning to think the same but seriously, we all have our fair share of problems

malickfan wrote:

Norc wrote:this merry christmas thread got dark... i'm sorry.. (for norcing it into crippling love-angst).

Well that was more my fault, and tbh most of my Christmases usually descend into me moping around in crippling love angst, two solid days of drinking wine and cider probably didn't help

This the season to be jolly, falalalala fala la la

Hang in there Malick, still two more days til the new year, and even then Christmas lasts all the way to Easter, as we say in Norway.

We really are a delightfully weird (but lovable) bunch of oddballs

malickfan wrote:

although i feel like a stupid shit for believing this fantastic (25-year old <3) man would love me back. [/quo

Hey, you are even younger than me, plenty of time to learn and grow as a person, there's never anything to feel embarrassed about when it comes to heartbreak and from the little I know about you on a personal level Norc, you have always struck me as a very nice, level headed person

now... say that to yourself. pls.



also, what i kinda meant about falling in love, it's nice and all not thinking about it too much and letting it happen as life progess, but for it to actually happen, one has to actively let it happen to you..


also, since it seems this forum is over-representated with lone-wolves, i think what is mordern society's many faults/sicknesses is the idea that "something better will come along" or that the next big love/thing is around, we wate for that crippling crush etc. and put the good things we have going on, the stuff that is right in front of our nose, on hold... and movies and shit also portays love and relationships and such as something almost holy, what is lost is how fucking dificult it is and how much work it is. crush/falling in love passes, but love (the deepset one) takes work, promises and comitment. in norwegian we have to different words for the whole thing. Forelskelse; the act of falling in love, the immediate crush, and "å elske" (to love); the kind married couples and stuff.

and, on the matter of asexuality (rubs hands over keyboard)... haha, joking... i totally respect people, and you Bangil, who identify as asexual (although i find the ocean of labels a bit overwhelming and at times unescessary) i have great trouble actually understanding it.

please don't misunderstand me, i don't want to drag people, or you, down, sexuality is personal and I am, and frankly anyone is, in no position to judge or say anything about it. it is personal. But out of curiousity for the world and human mind, i can't seem to understand it.

why? why are people asexual? or identifying as that or on a spectrum? is it the need for a label, so we can find comrads? is it how some people can't identify with the over-sexualised pop-culture? or the very traditinoal, hetronormative - expectations of society? is it that the libido is so different for men and womenr, or from person to person? is it a mental thing, or a hormonal thing? is it a conscious choice or something one is born with? is it the same as homosexuality? considering evolution and how all spieces need to "Multiply", sex is such a part of life, why are some people simply not sexual?

i just have so many question!!! Again i respect you for you and since i firmely believe that one's sexuality or sexual organs shouldn't really be a topix unless one is planning on.. well... having sex, i have no problems with asexuality being something people identify as.. but i am soooo curious! because i am a fairly sexual person but i also know how a lack of libido feels like (damn you birth control pills!" and i can understand that if one struggle to figure out one's sexual preferences, that it might be easier and feel safer to stay away (hell i did that for a long time, but then i discovered how fun sex can be lulz..). that's my experience with that.. idk.. it's unfamiliar territory for me, i am curious

Bluebottle wrote:

that song hit me hard when i first heard it live at the Øya-festival this summer (yes i am a musical noob and hadn't heard of the XX until then)

Norc wrote:and, on the matter of asexuality (rubs hands over keyboard)... haha, joking... i totally respect people, and you Bangil, who identify as asexual (although i find the ocean of labels a bit overwhelming and at times unescessary) i have great trouble actually understanding it.

please don't misunderstand me, i don't want to drag people, or you, down, sexuality is personal and I am, and frankly anyone is, in no position to judge or say anything about it. it is personal. But out of curiousity for the world and human mind, i can't seem to understand it.

why? why are people asexual? or identifying as that or on a spectrum? is it the need for a label, so we can find comrads? is it how some people can't identify with the over-sexualised pop-culture? or the very traditinoal, hetronormative - expectations of society? is it that the libido is so different for men and womenr, or from person to person? is it a mental thing, or a hormonal thing? is it a conscious choice or something one is born with? is it the same as homosexuality? considering evolution and how all spieces need to "Multiply", sex is such a part of life, why are some people simply not sexual?

i just have so many question!!! Again i respect you for you and since i firmely believe that one's sexuality or sexual organs shouldn't really be a topix unless one is planning on.. well... having sex, i have no problems with asexuality being something people identify as.. but i am soooo curious! because i am a fairly sexual person but i also know how a lack of libido feels like (damn you birth control pills!" and i can understand that if one struggle to figure out one's sexual preferences, that it might be easier and feel safer to stay away (hell i did that for a long time, but then i discovered how fun sex can be lulz..). that's my experience with that.. idk.. it's unfamiliar territory for me, i am curious

Well, I'm not an expert on it myself and still questioning my own feelings (if anything I think I'm closer to: http://wiki.asexuality.org/Demisexual ...but it may just be me being insecure or picky or to do with the whole depression issue) but you might find this website useful:


http://www.asexuality.org/

Baingil wrote:
Of course!  I definitely wish I'd had someone to talk to when I was going through the same stuff (not that I still don't have things I'm working through) so I tend to make it my personal mission to try to offer the support to questioning people I wish I'd had.    Also, I really hope you don't believe what the newspapers have been telling you.  It's all lies I swear.

That's a very kind offer Bain, I'm rather touched I think it's proven more confusing for me because I honestly hadn't even thought about this stuff for years, whether due to depression or lack of interest I had just kinda shut off all this romantic stuff and almost never thought about it, to get a sudden massive crush on someone out of the blue for the first time in many years came as a massively confusing (and mildly terrifying) surprise (more so now that it's reawakened other dormant feelings...are those anti-depressants I'm taking that powerful? ) and I'm trying to remember how to deal with this stuff.

I definitely have spent a lot of time working through exactly what brand of asexual I was - I sound pretty confident now, but it took a few years, and I don't mind talking a bit more about it over PM but there's no need to clutter the Christmas thread with even more backstory.    

That's a very kind offer Bain (especially considering I don't think we've ever even talked (well, written online) to each other before!) if you are willing to share more stories , but I don't really want to pry too much or dig up bad memories, I think the main issue for me is that I haven't put much time or effort into exploring that side of myself, those early experiences coupled with the depression/self confidence issues left me with very heavy emotional scars that I never completely got over, I ignored that side of myself in my formative years when I should have been experimenting or pushing myself, now I'm at a point where I'm starting to get some of the confidence/curiosity back I'm starting to feel a bit out of place and embarrassed at my lack of experience.

I personally found that I had difficulty figuring it all out until I decided just to accept that I was me, and if I didn't like anybody that was fine

Accepting me for myself and learning to love myself is the first hurdle I need to overcome before I think about others I think

 It's more about what you want and feel than about naming those feelings, even if it can be a fairly significant feeling to be able to put that name to those feelings and be able to tell people "this is me" and know what to expect from yourself in terms of this stuff.

That's quite a sensible attitude to have

It's never too late to grow emotionally!  Sure, it'll take time and probably effort, but as has been pointed out already, there's plenty of people who end up working through issues of this nature far later in life, and the good news is that you're working on it.  While progress isn't ever as immediate as anyone would like, I've found that looking back at where I was usually ends with a "holy hell I've come a long way."  

Yeah, I'm already in a much better place mentally than I was even four months ago, it feels damn good to being something about some of my issues at long last, I just wish I had tried earlier...

If you do want to date but don't feel up for the emotional effort on top of the other stuff you're dealing with?  No need to rush anything.  Seriously.

Well if/when I do find myself in with the chance of developing a possible relationship I'm going to be completely honest about my lack of experience and take things as slowly as makes me/her comfortable, I feel like I'd already have to know them as friends before I could plunge into a heavy romantic entanglement anyway.

Sounds like a plan!  And good luck!

Thank you...I hope I can hold myself to that challenge

Also, if you feel the need to just talk with someone about ace stuff, I'll try to log in more often and check my messages here.  Or, if I've dropped off the forum again, Eldo knows how to get ahold of me.  Seriously, as I said: I wish I'd had somebody to talk with while I was figuring stuff out so I'm happy to try to save other people from at least a little of the frustration I went through.

Thanks once again Bain, and I'll remember this kind offer (I am talking though some of this stuff with other people irl as well), it's certainly quite a confusing thing to work out...

Bain can talk about asexuality much better than I can, but the short version is that it's a sexual orientation, not a hormonal thing or simply low sex drive. The why of it is about as clear as the reasons why some people are straight or gay (ie, we don't know ), but the whole argument from evolution always strikes me as a red herring. If the whole of human sexuality -- and asexuality -- was limited solely to "what is essential for the propagation of the species" we would be living in a very different world.

Eldorion wrote:Bain can talk about asexuality much better than I can, but the short version is that it's a sexual orientation, not a hormonal thing or simply low sex drive. The why of it is about as clear as the reasons why some people are straight or gay (ie, we don't know ), but the whole argument from evolution always strikes me as a red herring. If the whole of human sexuality -- and asexuality -- was limited solely to "what is essential for the propagation of the species" we would be living in a very different world.

yeah.. it is for sure a really interesting topic, and a fairly new one. I also assume that every individual's reasons behind it is different, individual and a personal journey. i simply don't know anything about it, and because i can't really understand it, i am just very curious. i hope i don't come forth as disrespectufl and such, i am honestly just.. intrigued. i don't think there is just one answer.

Norc wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:

that song hit me hard when i first heard it live at the Øya-festival this summer (yes i am a musical noob and hadn't heard of the XX until then)

On hold was my introduction to them too. Well, after this ofc, which is related:



Although, I think I prefer this one:

malickfan wrote:That's rather heartwarming    (though the robot cats sound pretty cool on their own) , and I know that somewhere out there there is probably someone willing to put up with me, I just haven't put any effort into trying to find out, I feel like I should work through my own issues first before I commit myself to the pressures that dating would bring  

malickfan wrote:Accepting me for myself and learning to love myself is the first hurdle I need to overcome before I think about others I think

Deciding when and how you want to start looking for a relationship is a very personal decision so I don't want to come across as telling you what to do, but as I've mentioned before I am super against the viewpoint that you need to "love yourself in order for anyone else to love you", or however else people phrase it sometimes. Truth is, most people find emotional vulnerability (which goes hand in hand with openness) to be an attractive quality, and you don't actually need a ton of self-confidence to pull this off. Openness is not always reciprocated, of course, but practicing it in a variety of different contexts makes people considerably more likely to open up to you than would be the case otherwise. Not everyone who has responded in kind to me was interested in an intimate relationship (emotionally or otherwise) of course, though building closer friendships is a worthwhile process in and of itself. Nor did everyone who was interested in that way turn out to be a healthy or supportive person for me to be around, and in this aspect I do have to admit that having a bit more self-respect earlier on would have been helpful. But then there's the sweet spot with Baingil, who for some reason thinks I compare favorably with an army of robot cats, and having her support has made a tremendous difference for my mental well-being that I would've missed out on if I'd tried to fix everything on my own first. I still wouldn't say that I love myself, but at least there are more counter-arguments I can give to my self-hatred.

Anyway, none of this is to say that anyone should go into a relationship expecting it to fix all their problems, of course, because that's not how it works (relationships are themselves a lot of hard work), but problems are a lot easier to deal with when you have people to turn to. This doesn't have to come from someone you're in an emotionally intimate relationship with, of course, and if possible it's best to cultivate a network of people you can turn to. But for a lot of people, having one person in particular who you're especially close with feels really good, and the best part is that it's possible to be supportive for someone else in turn while still dealing with your own shit.

Just my take.

Edit: I should add that this advice probably holds significantly less water when it comes to the traditional dating/meeting people in bars scene, which I don't have the experience to comment on.

Anyway, since we're posting songs:

i kinda agree, you don't have to love yourself to find someone, but you have to trust that you are at least worthy of love. As i mentioned before; you accept the love you think you deserve, which i strongly believe in. But, that being said, one has to find some inner strength, because if you rely on someone else to give you self-worth, all the aknowledgement, confidence and all that is needed to "build you up", then that is way too much to ask of of only one person, and frankly a dick-move then you trod a narrow path into being very dependent on that one person, and every little thing that person says or does affects you and your self-image a lot more, than if you have "strong core self-loving-muscles"

Norc wrote:and, on the matter of asexuality (rubs hands over keyboard)... haha, joking... i totally respect people, and you Bangil, who identify as asexual (although i find the ocean of labels a bit overwhelming and at times unescessary) i have great trouble actually understanding it.

please don't misunderstand me, i don't want to drag people, or you, down, sexuality is personal and I am, and frankly anyone is, in no position to judge or say anything about it. it is personal. But out of curiousity for the world and human mind, i can't seem to understand it.

why? why are people asexual? or identifying as that or on a spectrum? is it the need for a label, so we can find comrads? is it how some people can't identify with the over-sexualised pop-culture? or the very traditinoal, hetronormative - expectations of society? is it that the libido is so different for men and womenr, or from person to person? is it a mental thing, or a hormonal thing? is it a conscious choice or something one is born with? is it the same as homosexuality? considering evolution and how all spieces need to "Multiply", sex is such a part of life, why are some people simply not sexual?

i just have so many question!!! Again i respect you for you and since i firmely believe that one's sexuality or sexual organs shouldn't really be a topix unless one is planning on.. well... having sex, i have no problems with asexuality being something people identify as.. but i am soooo curious! because i am a fairly sexual person but i also know how a lack of libido feels like (damn you birth control pills!" and i can understand that if one struggle to figure out one's sexual preferences, that it might be easier and feel safer to stay away (hell i did that for a long time, but then i discovered how fun sex can be lulz..). that's my experience with that.. idk.. it's unfamiliar territory for me, i am curious

*cracks knuckles*  Seems it's time for a little impromptu lesson in asexuality!  (I sincerely did not mean to hijack this thread, and I sincerely hope this isn't TMI but... you asked, and I don't mind answering curiosity even if it's a bit of a personal topic; I got pretty freakin' personal already here, damage done, might as well continue.   )  Hopefully this makes sense!

I think it's best to start from the definition I'm using.  Asexuality, as currently defined by the good people on the Asexual Visibility and Education Network (AVEN for short, and the most active online asexual community I've seen and definitely worth looking up if you want more information), is a lack of sexual attraction.  Sounds simple enough, right?  If there are orientations where people are attracted to men or women or both or nonbinary, then obviously, "none of the above" might make sense as an option for a limited amount of the population, simply statistically speaking.  The human race is vast and varied, after all, with all sorts of weird quirks.  The problem is that there are a lot of things that complicate one's ability to identify themselves with this definition.

For example, romantic attraction can be separate from sexual attraction altogether.  A crush, for example, is not solely based in a desire to do things with other people that involve a lack of pants; there's an intense emotional aspect that sets it apart from friendship, but also too many emotional aspects to call it solely physical attraction if sufficiently analyzed.  Conversely, people who often have (and enjoy) one night stands prove that sexual attraction is perfectly possible without wanting to go on dates with the person or even a desire to see them again (or so I've heard).  Taking this further, someone who is uninterested in sex may be completely interested in romantic relationships (or vis versa).  A lack of romantic attraction, by the way, is referred to as aromanticism (which is just as complex as asexuality, if even less known).  I know, more labels, but aromanticism is not actually limited to asexuals and it is somewhat necessary to distinguish the two.  I'll leave the in-depth discussion of what this means out (for this post anyway), but you might be able to imagine that having a romantic orientation that doesn't match one's sexual orientation can be a bit difficult to figure out.  If the person in question wants a committed relationship with someone they want to date and cuddle and be called ridiculous pet names by, but doesn't want sex with that person, that can quickly become a problem in its own right.

Then there's people who are what I refer to as "on the spectrum".  While somewhat loosely defined, this tends to refer to people who resemble complete asexuals the majority of the time, but in certain rare conditions may experience sexual attraction to someone.  For example, in the case of demisexuality (a rather common form), the person in question only discovers a physical interest once they form a close emotional connection with certain people.  While certainly many people need a degree of connection before attraction ensues, if a person is completely lacking in attraction to other human beings a significant portion of the time, then they experience a great many of the little oddities and problems faced by those who are never attracted to others at all, and are therefore considered just as much a part of the community.

Another thing - a presence or lack of libido doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being asexual! (And I'd say libido varies more from person to person than by gender, stereotypes aside; I've found plenty of examples that defy the usual expectations.)  Though I must say that the lack of a libido is certainly difficult to distinguish from "not attracted to others", but since it's attraction we're dealing with, there's certainly cases where the libido is just there, being directionless and annoying and confusing because asexuals in this situation may like the idea of sex but look at the available population of humans and go "nope not interested in sex with any available option".  As you might be able to imagine, this can be very confusing if you automatically assume it must be targeted at something or someone.

With all these frustrations (and more), there is a certain comfort in running across people who identify with these sorts of feelings and having a name for them, as well as a framework to identify what the heck you are (or aren't) interested in in the first place.  It can be difficult to figure out what "interest" feels like when you haven't actually felt it for yourself, and when it's already apparently different for everyone according to all the descriptions, and then put a name to the particular type of interest you're feeling (sexual? romantic? neither, but this person is cool and I wanna hang out with 'em forever?), so having resources to fall back on to help pinpoint what the heck the stuff you're feeling is can be invaluable when you're trying to figure out whether the butterflies in your stomach are the kind talked about in all the books and you're just not used to it, or "I am very uncomfortable with being hit on please stop".  Though really, everything you listed is a sort of factor for why labels and understanding can be helpful; asexuality in particular is sometimes confusing and frequently misunderstood, and I was able to get to the age of 20 without figuring out my own sexuality and still trying to force myself to "get over" my "fear" of dating because everything I'd ever heard told me that I just hadn't found "the right person" or I was "damaged" or "repressed" for my lack of interest.  I can't speak for everyone, but I felt like I was broken somehow, until I discovered this was a Thing with a Name, and it didn't mean anything was wrong, it just meant I was a little different from most people.  Also made me stop trying to somehow force myself to pretend I wanted to date other people just because I assumed everyone did, so surely the desire must be in there somewhere, right?  Sure, the label itself might not be important; but what it meant at the time was a pretty big deal, and going by what I've heard I'm definitely not alone in that.

As far as that goes, the label of asexuality is also helpful in the same way that other labels for other orientations are: it lets people know who you are - or aren't - attracted to.  People do seem to forget about the latter part; but in the same way that describing oneself as "straight" lets people know that you aren't interested in the same sex as yourself, and "gay" lets people know that you aren't interested in the opposite, "asexual" lets people know that you aren't interested in any of the above, and is just as useful in defining one's orientation as any of the other prospective labels.  I actually agree that labels are often confusing and there's way too many of them when it's more about who people are than what they call themselves, but when they're confused and looking for a lifeline that tells them that they're okay, labels can end up being a beacon of hope for a lot of people as well as (theoretically) a way to communicate without having to describe every tiny detail of their internal sensations in order to get the point across.  Hence, why labels can be situationally very important.

Let's see, as for other questions: I'd say it's something people are born with, just like any other orientation (unless someone wants to argue that orientations are a choice, but I think the amount of inconvenience a non-hetero orientation can cause in modern society negates that hypothesis just fine; who the hell would choose to go through this nonsense of their own volition?).  My hormones are completely normal - checked by a doctor due to something completely different, came up perfectly healthy - and so are plenty of aces who've wondered (or been asked) if they have a hormone problem, so that's definitely not the issue.  It's not the same as homosexuality (except insofar as it's an orientation); I did consider that option back when I was still questioning, and went through a hilarious-in-retrospect phase where I thought I might be bisexual because I had just as much interest in women as in men (i.e. none whatsoever).  As for the evolutionary aspect - it's not my area of expertise, but I have heard of studies that demonstrated its presence in (small percentages of) mammals, as well as hypotheses that assume it's to free up some members of the species to help with childcare.  Personally, I think that, as our species evolved homosexuality - which is just as likely to result in a lack of children - that it's not that far of a stretch to guess asexuality evolved from whatever process caused that, if evolution was even trying to go in any direction with it at all.  Could be an answer to overpopulation.  Could just be a random harmless mutation.  Who knows.    Not me.  I'm better with computers anyway.

Norc wrote:i kinda agree, you don't have to love yourself to find someone, but you have to trust that you are at least worthy of love. As i mentioned before; you accept the love you think you deserve, which i strongly believe in.

I sorta agree. As I mentioned earlier, one of the reasons I've gotten into so many bad experiences is feeling that I didn't deserve any better, but on the other hand it's hard to learn to accept anything better if you've never even known what it feels like. Not freaking out and running away when I feel that Baingil is nicer to me than I deserve is still something I struggle with to some extent, but getting to actually practice and learn how such a dynamic works with someone who is patient and understanding of where I come from is more helpful than trying to mentally simulate that sort of thing ever was. Although moving away from my mom and getting to practice being loved unconditionally by my dad's family was also a major factor (though I still freak out around them sometimes too ).

that is way too much to ask of of only one person, and frankly a dick-move then you trod a narrow path into being very dependent on that one person, and every little thing that person says or does affects you and your self-image a lot more, than if you have "strong core self-loving-muscles"

Yeah, having only one source of support and/or self-worth isn't very safe or sustainable (which is true regardless of who or what that sole source is).

Baingil, holy moly ! thank you so much for such a good, thoughtful, thourough and well-written answer! wow! that was actually pretty helpful. I don't want to get too personal about this subject, but i can relate and understand some of the feelings you describe. For me, however, that would only relate to idk being human but thank you for giving me a clearer picture of what this is all about it's interesting and definitely needs more (un-biased) research

on a personal level i do find the whole sexuality/attraction thing very confusing. but i am young, and i don't feel the need to define myself... just yet.

Wow, before Eldo and Baingil weighed in I was about to point out we were ALL asexual before a certain age...and probably a hell of a lot happier.

It will take time to let it all soak in. Eldo's point that it's a sexual orientation rather than lack of hormones is key.

apart from Petty obviously- Malick

{{whats wrong with  my sound advice?! Get very drunk, take all those 'feelings' 'emotions' and 'labels' and bury them somewhere deep and dark where they can fester and simmer forever and be forgotten about    and if the buggers try to show up to bother you again, drink more Its worked for generations of Scots -well aside from all the dour crabbit drunken violent tendencies }}}

@Halfy, I knew very little about asexuality aside from the fact that it exists until about two years ago, when I first learned some of the related terminology on another forum. Baingil came out to me shortly thereafter and explained a bunch more things, and as a result I did a bunch of reading on my own time to try to gain a better understanding, but my knowledge is secondhand and I wouldn't want to present myself as anything resembling an authority. I think Bain gave a really good overview in her post above, but if you're curious to learn more, I'd echo her recommendation of AVEN (www.asexuality.org), which is probably the best first port of call and was very helpful for me.

Eldorion wrote:Bain can talk about asexuality much better than I can, but the short version is that it's a sexual orientation, not a hormonal thing or simply low sex drive. The why of it is about as clear as the reasons why some people are straight or gay (ie, we don't know ), but the whole argument from evolution always strikes me as a red herring. If the whole of human sexuality -- and asexuality -- was limited solely to "what is essential for the propagation of the species" we would be living in a very different world.

With a lot less tentacle porn...

Edit:
One thing I will say is that I don't believe that adopting specific labels is always the best thing to do for oneself at a younger age. I think it is a fine thing that young people are encouraged now-a-days to try and learn more about themselves in respect to new ideas about psychology and human nature, but I would caution that a person take these ideas with a grain of salt.

That is to say, what one believes about oneself at 16 is not going to be the same as what one believes about oneself at 25 and that's not the same as at 32, etc. I wish to empathize with people who feel anti-social, but I would caution against buying too heavily into the self-identification as a person who is depressed or anti-social or any thing really. It's a tricky subject, because obviously you want help when you need it (as you do when seriously depressed). I suppose what I'm really talking about is that it is important to remain open to the idea that one is not restricted by what one currently believes about oneself.
If that makes any sense.

I began to read this thread, then start skipping through posts, then decided i’d best focus on finding out what day Erumas is... as Christmas seems a dark place for the mind to be... Erumas, i’m sure, would be a much nicer time, without anywhere near as much psychosexuality going on.

For the record, I chatted to Odo, and he said, as far as psychosexuality goes, or what he calls ‘naughtybodypartthinking’: he thinks you are what you are, and only the most strong and fanatically minded would bother trying to be what you aren’t; him being genetically Respectable, and everyone else quite possibly being perverted in at least one way or possibly two, some more than others. He meant it kindly. Here to help - and I hope it does.

NB does anyone know when Erumas falls?

Orwell wrote:NB does anyone know when Erumas falls?

Erumas is forever in the hearts of the true believers.

Oh good grief.