FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Of course this is mostly a theoretical discussion. The legality of the brexit vote cannot be questioned, and it will happen it seems. As a european brexit is a really sad thing.

I do see issues with the democratic legitimacy of the vote however, and I think in light of the realities of the effect of the decision, it will go down in history as one of those moments fervent nationalism lead a country into what is for all practical purposes a great act of self harm. Not the only country going through those swings and roundabouts at at the moment though.

I do hope liberal parts of the Uk get some well earned autonomy. Particularly Scotland. It's best for both parties at this point. Scotland and England are two countries that want to go in diametrically opposite directions at the moment.

Alba gu bràth

I initially made a really long post here but I feel like the main issue is that our definitions of democratic legitimacy seem to be different. My initial post on this topic was made in response to Grayling's article, not to anything that you said. The fact that you responded to it suggested to me your intent to defend the arguments that I had criticized, though it seems that was not entirely the case. In the article, Grayling stated that the referendum vote was "constitutionally improper" and that Brexit is "look[ing] a lot like a coup". These descriptors have been in the back of my mind when discussing the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Brexit. But in attempting to respond to your longer post on the previous page I found myself stating over and over again that it seemed like we had different definitions, and I don’t want to inadvertently strawman you. Since in your most recent post on this page you distinguish between "democratic legitimacy" and "legality", I think it’s clear that we’re talking about different topics, so I don’t really have anything further to say other than that I agree Brexit was a stupid decision.

Well, at least it seems most of us agree it was stupid.

I don't see the UK as the last country to go though.... there will always be problems until the EU either really goes for it with a deep political and fiscal union (and has a few subsequent generations who know nothing else) or it all falls apart when the next big crisis hits and the richer countries have to foot another big bill that they couldn't really afford the first time around.

Yeah, the EU needs to change. At the moment it is trying to do a whole lot of things without having the rigth tools to do them. I'm not sure any countries will leave though. General opinion is against it in all EU countries from where I have seen statistics. Brexit has been enough of a warning so far, and it will only get worse.

What we might see are countries leaving in response to the reform. I am mostly thinking east block countries here, like Hungary and Poland. (But a lot will change in Poland after the next election.) A two speed EU is possible, but not ideal. Federalism is a distant dream from the most optimistic persepectives.

What I think the EU needs to do is to move into and solve all the problems that can be solved better at regional level than national level.

Guy Verhoftstadt propogates this view, but he is to optimistic with regard to too much change in a short time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/guy-verhofstadt-european-union-reforms-eu-belgium-europe-fbi-2017-1?

Eldorion wrote:I initially made a really long post here but I feel like the main issue is that our definitions of democratic legitimacy seem to be different. My initial post on this topic was made in response to Grayling's article, not to anything that you said. The fact that you responded to it suggested to me your intent to defend the arguments that I had criticized, though it seems that was not entirely the case. In the article, Grayling stated that the referendum vote was "constitutionally improper" and that Brexit is "look[ing] a lot like a coup". These descriptors have been in the back of my mind when discussing the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Brexit. But in attempting to respond to your longer post on the previous page I found myself stating over and over again that it seemed like we had different definitions, and I don’t want to inadvertently strawman you. Since in your most recent post on this page you distinguish between "democratic legitimacy" and "legality", I think it’s clear that we’re talking about different topics, so I don’t really have anything further to say other than that I agree Brexit was a stupid decision.

Seems so. I think Grayling's statement with regard to legal maters should be taken with a pinch of salt, as that is not his field.

Still, it's good with some brazing debate from time to time

I would like to get more into british constitutional matters as some point, but i have to admit i do not known enough about it, nor do I have time to get properly into it at this point, to make a substantial contribution.

Comparative constitutional law is a fascinating field though.

http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1066&context=public_law_and_legal_theory

There's no way I'm a political scientist, but having watched these processes up close in the real world, both with agricultural cooperatives and with States Rights debates, I think there are two competing forces that need to be in balance for a voluntary organization to succeed. There needs to be a viable path for smaller members to leave (otherwise the large members will bully their way towards centralized power) and there also needs to be a high price to be paid for leaving (otherwise small members will use the ability to come and go at will to "game" the system).  The "leave" card is best used as a real threat,  but once it's actually played everybody suffers and sometimes the whole cooperative fails. That's been my experience.

This is the kind of system outlined by Verhofstadt. A Europe of the Union and assosciate states. If you don't want to come along for treaty reform you have to step down to the level of an assosciate state, with less involvement, but also less benefits.



http://www.politico.eu/article/guy-verhofstadt-brexit-is-a-golden-opportunity-for-the-eu/

OK. In theory that sounds like a reasonable solution if it's done fairly, but the Devil is always in the Details. But without the perception of fairness, I wouldn't be surprised to see the trend toward break-ups continuing until something hits bottom.

{{Nice to see a Tory speaking their mind and being honest!}}

'A Tory MP told a girl to "f*** off back to Scotland" when she said she'd vote for independence if a second referendum was triggered.
James Heappey's outburst came as he addressed sixth-formers at the £12,000-a-year Millfield School in Somerset.
The Conservative, who is contesting the seat of Wells, asked the children for their views as they discussed the topic of Scottish independence. When one girl said she'd vote to leave the UK, Mr Heappey, 36, replied: "Why don't you f*** off back to Scotland?"
The teenager left the meeting and complained to her father.
Mr Heappey has since sent her a written apology and insists he was joking.'- The Independent


{{{Not sure I see how that qualifies as a joke exactly? }}}

I can't believe an MP would use that language in public, much less with kids.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Mr Heappey has since sent her a written apology and insists he was joking.'- The Independent
{{{Not sure I see how that qualifies as a joke exactly?  }}}

The man clearly needs some lessons in remedial humour.
What's most appalling is for a politician to ask a young person's opinion ( ) and then sh*t on them in front of their friends and peers ( ).

Funny.

https://www.facebook.com/BeingScottish/videos/10155372418783559/

{{{The Brilliant Stanley Baxter there Chris- I used to love those they repeated them all the time when I was a kid

Frankie on whose to blame for austerity}}

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/news/pineapple-art-exhibition-scotland-robert-gordon-university-ruairi-gray-lloyd-jack-a7723516.html

This is potentially dangerous, what else could be left lying around that will end up in a glass case ?

{{{{ }}}

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/midge-misery-scotland-numbers-biting-10929576

I love that there's something called "The Scottish Midge Forecast"!

I think I finally understand now why all the characters in LotR set off for long travels in the fall instead of the spring. Winter is less terrifying than those little monsters!

{{{Definitely Halfy - this is why our favoured camping time of year is December-February- good chance of dry weather, bright clear starry skies and no midgies- probably bollocking cold but the right clothes and fire soon sort that- you can't sort midgies, there are no right clothes, they find a way in. }}}

{{The UK government has admitted that in 2014 when they told the Scottish people oil revenue was only 1.76 billion they 'miscalculated' and now admit it was actually 6 times that at 10.59 billion.

I like how they say they 'miscalculated' given they have lied almost continuously to Scotland since the oil was discovered about its worth. They didn't miscalculate when they spent it all anyway. }}}

{{Another one bites the dust! Scottish Labour leader Dugdale has resigned.
She says she is doing it now in order to give her successor a good run for the 2021 elections. The politics rumour says her opposition to Corbyn was putting her under pressure from the hard left of the Scottish Labour party and they were going to challenge her leadership and she is jumping before she is pushed.
But in this case I think the answer is far simpler- her heart is no longer 100% in Labour or Unionism. Why? Well she had split from her long term partner and has been dating for some time Jenny Gilruth- who just happens to be an MSP too, for the SNP.
I think she could envision a future of the press on all sides using their relationship, especially in the case of another independence referendum and just thought it wasn't worth the trouble- cant say I blame her, but she was also bloody awful as a politician and leader of Labour and that should not be forgotten either.
Also Ive lost count of how may Scottish Labour leaders the SNP government has seen off now- must be close to double-figures!}}}

I know very little about Scottish Politics (or UK-wide politics in general ) but I'm not surprised she is stepping down as leader, she didn't seem very popular or effective, and I'm pretty certain you can put down Labour's increase in votes and MP's this election down to voters being swayed by Corbyn, rather than any loyalty/love for Blairites such as her...didn't she claim Corybn was/is a disaster as leader and would lead to a Labour wipeout across the country? Bit rich considering her allies in Scottish Labour had already done that north of the border...

{{{ I would say Corbyn was more an effect than Dugdale that is true, but it was not the only factor- Brexit played a part as did there being no pressing reason to send SNP members this time. But it has to be remembered not long ago Labour were overwhelmingly dominant in Scotland, under Dugdale they came third behind the Tory party- and that was with the 'Corbyn effect'. Whatever appeal Corbyn has it definitely did not extend to Dugdale. She was pretty vocal in her opposition to Corbyn in the leadership contest and publicly backed another candidate. And her weasely words trying and failing to explain why now he had won she was saying Corbyn could be PM when just the week before she had said he could never be PM, did not help her.
Scottish Labour has a long seated brain drain problem- for generations when there was no Scottish Parliament the brightest, best and most ambitous set their sights on Westminster- giving us your Cooks, Brown ect. But it meant these politicians were not staying in Scotland and even after the Parliament Labour still treated it as an offshoot, and their best still went to Westminster leaving a B team to run the Scottish Parliament in its initial years. The SNP on the otherhand were entirely locally rooted, funded, recruiting and working and as they only got about 4-8 MP's at a general election their best and brightest stayed in Scotland or returned to it.
Since then till now Scottish Labour have gone through the alphabet- when Dugdale got the job she was in the z-ranks. Under no other circumstances would she have risen to leader of the party other than there being no one else left standing or who wanted the job.

Here's Andrew Neiil interviewing her, judge her qualities for yourself.


(Incidentally the Peoples Constitutional Convention she is banging on about never was more than these words! Thats how little it came too- because, as Neil points out it was a crazy Dugdale idea)

Another problem she had was facing Sturgeon at First Ministers Questions, since coming third to the Tories she gets her questions after Ruth Davidson the Tory leader gets hers in- and in this not untypical example Dugdale all but parrots the same questions Davidson just asked. The SNP are weak politically on education, this should have been easy, but apart from Dugdale often not having the numbers and facts to hand, which lets Sturgeon just pummel her with stats, she also lets Sturgeon rile her and get under her skin.



Now she is gone there is little quality, if any left, in the Scottish party and the two front runners, one the Deputy Leader, have already ruled themselves out. It is possible some bright fresh new blood will emerge from the wreckage, but it seems more likely to me that Labour will switch places with the Tories, and the Tories will become the challenging party and the parliamentary opposition- thought Brexit going bad and Tories being blamed might upset that yet. }}

https://garypaterson.scot/2017/09/11/20-years-on-the-scottish-parliament-is-the-heartbeat-of-the-nation/