FREEDOM!!!! [4]

For as much as people complain about Blair having tracked right in order to win back the post-Thatcher electorate, few people seem willing to admit that Cameron tracked back leftwards (not as much as Blair did, but part of the way) to allow the Tories to win again. That is to Blair's credit (IMO). Undoubtedly the political spectrum will continue to sway as it always has but it tends to do so gradually, not in huge jumps, which is what a Corbyn general election win would be.

The New Labour faction is certainly weaker for the fact that so few MPs seem willing to stand up and take the risk of being the one to challenge Corbyn, but part of the reason the party is stuck right now is because they decided to make the leadership election more like an American primary, despite the fact that they're still operating in the Westminster system. Unlike Presidential candidates, the Leader of the Opposition needs to be on the same wavelength as his parliamentary party for things to function properly. However, MPs are still chosen by internal party mechanisms (when choosing who to have run in which constituency) so there is even more of a disconnect between them and regular Labour voters (and the leader those voters picked) than one might expect.

NB As is also the case in American primaries, the Labour voters who participated in the leadership election are not necessarily reflective of the electorate as a whole, since politically passionate and strongly-opinioned people are vastly more likely to participate in the leadership election than more casual voters.

Corbyn is like a 1980s student union Socialist Workers wet dream. it was bollocks then and its bollocks now.

{{{{ I think Eldo those who complain are fewer in number than their vocalizations of it. The majority I reckon would say Blairs from of Labour was on balance a good thing- he still did Labour things like introduce minimum wage, and greatly improved childcare, made up in funding for the lack of it in the NHS under Tory rule, built new modern hospitals and I think most would say his distancing of Labour from Unions somewhat was a wise move, and of course allowed for devolution in Scotland and Wales- but on the other side he bankrupt the country creating massive debt that left us vulnerable, entered into insanely idiotic contracts with private companies to build hospitals and schools we are still paying huge sums for now and will be for decades to come and he got friendly with big business and press moguls like Murdoch normally favoured by the right.
And its that latter side, which rankles most regards his Labour credentials.

His real problem of course is that Iraq hangs over everything to do with him. He stood up at the dispatch box as PM and he lied to the whole nation in order to commit our troops to an illegal war based on false premises for an ulterior motive and everyone knows it. He will simply never recover from that in his standing in the UK.



Figg- problem is the audience Corbyn appeals to is the young. They dont know shit about the Winter of Discontent- fuck they think Tory austerity is bad imagine if the unions were randomly cutting all the electric and gas at random times of the day because their union was demanding more pay and conditions no one could afford. They'd soon be moaning like fuck when they lose all their work on their pc or laptop, or their internet connection and power is cut for two hours every other day or so without warning.
It'd be like using Daves pc! (where is he anyway, did he say he was off sailing again or something adventurous and Tookish like that? Not that Im saying his fields look unattended just that the one I regularly visit has started to glow in the dark. )}}

I think Blair deserves all the shit he gets for Iraq (and more that he won't get because international courts don't care about crimes by wealthy First World countries and their leaders). I don't mean to suggest that his domestic policies were perfect by any means, but he understood that you have to compromise in order to gain power and put any part of your party's goals into practice. Unfortunately people who get passionate about their political beliefs are often quite averse to compromise. This is a generalization of course but it cuts across all parties and all age brackets. Activists and vocal political movements certainly play an important role in determining which issues are on the table, but at the end of the day you need to have people who can negotiate and come away with the good compromise that leaves everyone unhappy, as the saying goes. This is where it's useful to have professional politicians. When your politicians are themselves part of a loud activist movement they're less likely to compromise and then you've got a recipe for gridlock (see also: the US's Tea Party movement and the House Freedom Caucus).

I think Corbyn played a valuable role in the Labour party as a social gadfly for the left, and it was for that reason that he got most of the MP nominations he needed for the 2015 leadership election, but that's exactly what makes him such a bad choice for leader, in my opinion.

Eldorion wrote: .... at the end of the day you need to have people who can negotiate and come away with the good compromise that leaves everyone unhappy, as the saying goes. This is where it's useful to have professional politicians....

I think the saying is "leaves everyone equally unhappy".

I don't have many beefs with Obama, but one thing that really puts a sour taste in my mouth is that he has made more political appointments to ambassadorships than any other president.  This is just plain wrong: I want those who represent our country to be career diplomats, for exactly the reason you outline above. This is nearly as bad as political/family appointments to the military, which thankfully we don't do but has been the norm in throughout history.

I won't pretend to have followed Obama's appointments to ambassadorships very much, but on the rare occasions when I read up on a specific ambassador I usually did not come away with a sense that they were well-qualified or particularly knowledgeable about the country they were posted to. I agree that this isn't the wisest of strategies.

{{The SNP conference and Sturgeon's big speech today- the big talking point was the announced of 'a draft referendum bill'.

Now this might sound like a big announcement but in fact its a colourful restating of her previous position and makes another referendum no more likely than before- but it does give the thousands of SNP members pushing for another vote to be called something to do.

The real meat of this speech went by largely unnoticed in the hall- the SNP are drafting ways to maximise Scotlands powers post Brexit- ability to strike our own trade deals for example, control of fisheries and agriculture for another- 2 of our biggest export markets.

This will test just how much May is telling the truth when she says she is serious about full consultation with the devolved parliaments on Brexit negotiations. But more tellingly- it doesn't need a second referendum and its not independence- but it would continue the SNP's old and steady policy of get more and more powers moved to Holyrood until so little is left at Westminster people don't see why its worth hanging onto that bit any more.

If you want an excellent analysis I recommend the BBC Scotland's Political Editor Brian Taylor's piece on it, in my view he is the best commentator and the most knowledgeable covering Scottish politics, and it was a disgrace during the referendum campaign the BBC shunted him aside to parachute in that toady  Nick Robinson, who was so out his depth and had clearly little grasp on Scottish politics, but who would toe the government line of Unionism-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37646408 }}

{{Scottish secretary gets a grilling from Andrew Neil on todays Sunday Politics Scotland- and proves what a complete bloody mess the whole Brexit thing is especially when it comes to Scotland and the UK }}}

That was painful. I know Mundell is pretty much the only person for the Scottish Secretary job since he's the only Tory MP from Scotland, but he seems to be either way out of his depth or to have been ordered not to comment on any actual policy positions.

{{I suspect a bit of both- and the fact May doesn't actually have a Brexit plan yet}}}

Fuck! Is she supposed to just make up the fucking plan just to satisfy people and so they can moan later on when it all turns to shit?

Im not sure if you meant that as 'the incompetent cow' Petty but with the amount of people jumping on the 'no plan' bandwagon just to give the tories a dig it is really getting on my nerves.

Indyref2 is annoying too but it is good that the polls suggest support for it is less now than it was.

Also... those fucking idiots that are either 'Europe has more to lose than us so we will get what we want' or 'fuck the single market..... we are the Great British' need a kick in the vagina too. I wouldn't believe people were so naive/fucking stupid if I didn't have to encounter them on a daily basis.

{{She is PM she is supposed to at least have a clue what she wants. Truth is the Government did not even write up a contingency plan for an out vote so are scrambling around trying to make one now.

We should at least, this far after the vote, have some clue as to what the direction of travel is- is it even the governments aim to remain in the single market or not? Their own ministers keep saying contradictory things about it. But its a pretty fundamental basic starting point.
Will fisheries be devolved to Scotland (we have over 90% of the UK fishing fleet and over 90% of uk fishing waters) we don't know that either- and that's not even something that is reliant on any time factor based on Europe, thats an internal UK matter- we know if we leave those powers come back under UK control exclusively- so they should at least know what they plan to do with them. It just looks incompetent- and whilst they dither and remain undecided and tell us nothing the pound keep tanking.


As to indyref2 Lance- Sturgeon is no ones fool and she is, again, playing a smart and canny game here- see the above piece by Brian Taylor on that. }}

smart and canny or opportunist. its either and both.

as for May they have just started negotiations they cant have a plan until they know what they are up against. until they know what that gigantic twat Juncker and his mates are going to do we need to hold fire. if we say we are going to do something and then find out a week later its not possible the gvt would soon start to look like wavering idiots. this whole mess is Boris's and Camerons fault, they never in their wildest nightmares dreamt it would come true. who has a fucking plan for the impossible. no one that's who.

{{{Saying if fisheries and agriculture will be devolved to the three governments concerned is not giving anything away- we know if we leave we are no longer part of the EU versions so the powers come back automatically to Westminster. And it shouldn't be a hard decision, the Scottish government should clearly be in charge of Scottish fishing and agriculture policy- two of our biggest export markets. Dithering over such an obvious conclusion is not doing May any favours up here.

But Mays got more than one problem here- she has to negotiate not just the UK exit from the EU, but the devolved settlement - the SNP will have a list of demands they will want met, prime among them most likely will be try to find away in which the UK leaves the EU but Scotland/Ireland/Gibraltar remain in the single market.
This would be very tricky but it does have the benefit of solving several potential large problems all at once- it gets the SNP off her back and means no independence referendum in the short to medium term, it means no border in Ireland and it means Gibraltar can continue its trade with the rest of Spain and Europe.

The downside is most likely getting  remaining membership of the single market would require some degree of free movement of people to those countries- Scotland has it now and wants more immigration, Ireland already have it and want to be in the EU so presumably want it, and its essential for Gibraltar- but does pose a problem with regard the Scotland/England border.

But however you look at the mess of Brexit is far more than just negotiating with the EU, May has to keep the UK together as well.}}

Meanwhile in Britain.

the pound has tanked. even more.

Your last post just summed it up really. There are lots of problems that need to be thought about properly. If May comes out blabbing of what she is going to do and can't achieve it, everyone will have a go at her for bad planning and bad negotiating.

This isn't a small thing Petty. It takes time to work out what the treaties say, what it means, how just a separation can be achieved, what options there are, how to balance all the conflicting demands.. oh and run the country.

{{I didn't say it was easy- but her problem is that whilst she gives nothing away the void is being filled- partly by her own MP's arguing with each other over hard and soft brexit, in/out the single market ect partly by speculation on the markets
And whilst the void is being filled with speculation the pound just keeps plunging- my wage barely cover my monthly bills as it is, I can't sustain rising food costs on what I get and the company cant sustain increasing wages to match cost of living- whatever May is going to do she has to do soon or things will get too far out of control before she can right the ship.
She has to at least give some indication as to our direction of travel and what the buggery it is she wants out of these negotiations- right now all that is being done is damage to the economy}}}

She has given that... she wants access to the single market but that immigration is the red line.

The speculation is around whether that is possible, if not then what is.

Wait until food prices start going up after we could even out of the single market and fall back on WTO tariffs!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scotland-baby-boxes-nicola-sturgeon-speech-live-snp-conference-a7363256.html?cmpid=facebook-post

{{Good idea. Its fairly inexpensive to do and the rewards seem worth trying for. }}}

{{So its ok for the PM to wish folk a happy St Georges day at the time, but if you mention St Andrew the Tories jeer and boo? Yeah demonstrating right there the level of respect really shown by Westminster to Scotland. What a disgrace.}}

The Tories will jeer & boo anyone who isn't a brown nosed old Etonian business magnet & multi millionaire, don't take it personally Tories are so narrow minded & entrenched in their hypocrisy & entombed in Dickensian ideas & morals that are so archaic, I wouldn't give them the drippings off my nose in Winter Yet, they are decidedly dangerous, underhand & deceitful.

{{I dont think they get the effect this sort of thing has here- we switch on our evening news to see the SNPO leader in the Commons standing to ask a hugely serious question about Syrai and the government response, and first, as the form, wishing well all those celebration a UK nation patron saint- and gets jeered.
Apart from anything else it should have been May's place to mention it in her opening statement at the dispatch box- all other PM's do for all the patron st days.
Tories have a bad enough rep up here- this sort of thing sets back the genuine strides forward made up here by Ruth Davidson and reinforces the view that we are never going ot bew seen as equal to England or taken seriously by it}}}

well to be fair they jeer at each other. they are equal opportunity jeerers. I wouldn't be sensitive about it. they rip each other to shreds on a daily basis.

I do have to say this about the American equivalent; for the past century senators and congressmen have always treated each other with respect, referring to each other as "the gentleman from Virginia", etc. It's been receding with the recent divisiveness, but such things do make a difference.