Critics review 'The Battle of the Five Armies'

Eldorion wrote:

Stig wrote:Ok. I'm gonna lay off TORN. I swear I will. But  I just gotta ask: isn't that a bit extreme? She can't even access the page as a lurker? Dude. Seriously. That's some straight up palantir shit. Not cool at all. Unless she posted porn or threatened someone there I'd say Saruman is in charge of that site. I never would've thought that of them prior to the "Hobbit" trilogy. My how the mighty have fallen. But I suppose, if their rules are no criticism of the films, they've every right to ban her. I'm sure Tolkien would be proud of TORN.
(Okay I'll stop now. Sorry. But, damn, even beer, Bob Marley and a day off can't conceal my disappointment in TORN.)

Are you somehow under the impression that TORN didn't IP ban people until the past few years? It's a common practice on many forums, especially with people who create new accounts to avoid bans, which Mrs Figg has said she's done. Btw, I'm baffled by how you keep talking about TORn's supposed moral decline. People on other Tolkien forums have been complaining about their pro-PJ biases for the last 10-15 years. I know you've mentioned other people who have left torn recently, but their issues with PJ criticism were around long before The Hobbit caused more people to become personally disillusioned with the films.

All true. But not to this extent. I'm not a fan of the "X problem has always existed" argument because that gives the impression that things can't/don't get worse or cross a line. But like I said, perhaps I am misremembering TORN as it was. But I honestly don't recall this much friction, by so many different people.

[quote="Stig"][quote="Eldorion"]

Stig wrote:
Shows what I know about other Tolkien sites.

Maybe I sped through the thread, but I didn't see much response to Petty. But facts are facts and you may be right. I'll have to go look again (if I care enough to). But it's hard not to notice the trend for critical responses.

However we'll have to agree to disagree on (what I deem) as TORN's demise. Like I said I was there since 2000 and in no way was the pro-film vs criticism sentiment as heated during the LOTR eraReally? I've only been active on Tolkien Forums since mid 2011, but I've read more than a few opnions things were split just as badly between purist and non purist camps back in the LOTR days-perhaps because LOTR is considered Tolkien's 'Epic' whereas The Hobbit has a different reputation, nor were the mods so heavy handedMaybe it comes with the increased exposure the site has had? In the three years I've posted there (sporadically) it seems more young people and teenagers have started posting...who don't always have the best etiquette on the net. In fact the idea that Petty had to be PMed positive feedback of his review demonstrates that: people would feel marginalized for openly agreeing with himI have heard similar stories from others, but it not something I have experience...ironically I see to take the attitude the mods on TORn apparently do...avoid getting into arguments...it's not worth the hassle.

Furthermore the staff weren't so obviously strained between their personal feelings and keeping a working professional relationship with the filmmaking teamWell, they do have a job to do...and I'm not entirely sure how TORn is funded....

My criticism of the site (like that of the films) is not just to be talking shit, it's because I notice a negative trend in something I used to once enjoy and felt apart ofI do feel the same way to a certain extent, but my viewpoint is coloured by my neagtive reaction to the Trilogy and relative 'newbie' status in Tolkien Fandom. And the only way I know of to try and put the breaks on it is saying something about it. Maybe they, themselves, don't notice.

I don't know the situation with certain people being banned or any other personal/"political" dealings going on, so I probably shouldn't be commenting on that. I'm just pointing out what I've seen. It is probably true that the non-movie threads are much more civil and may also be true that some of the old members are coming back (I haven't seen any on the movie threads, in fact I've seen more disappear since SmaugYes, I've noticed a few names dissapear, I've haven't really been a regular poster on TORn since shorly after Smaug myself I simply don't see the point in posting most of the time.)

I understand your position in trying to give fairness to TORN and how overwhelming it may seem with all the snide and snarkiness coming from some of usWell let's be honest most of us , but ultimately I think you may be glossing over some serious problems there. Problems that I feel fully justified, having been a heavy participant and never banned there for almost 15 yearsCurious, what was your username? (I can't remember a Stig...) PM me if you want to let me know. That's quite an impressive stint on a website , in calling out. I think I'm in a good position to judge Better than me certainly(but others here, who may've been there just as long also disagree with me. So who knows. The old site is gone and my memory is perhaps colored by nostalgia. But I really don't think so.) And again, I left there on my own accord.

I do want to add, though, that this behavior is not just TORN. There are a number of people working on the project that have lamented changes in PJ, but also tread carefully and professionally, as not to piss off the director with new found power in the business. I get all that too. Professionalism, trying to keep your job, etc., but it doesn't make for good art.  And that's where we powerless forum members on the net come in. We don't have to worry about our jobs, so we're the only ones that can speak clearly. Kinda like politics or students watching their schools change in ways that are at odds with their traditional purpose. (Not that I'm conflating these films with that level of importance, but the same issues apply.)A fair point

The most basic issue is that they just sold out. I get that they're volunteers, etc. etc. but it's gotten to the point where they're being heavy handed in fear of their "sponsors" or (would be sponsors) and it's a very disappointing turn of events. Every day I think "maybe I'm being just a bit too crabbit and not seeing clearly." Then I pop every now and again and roll my eyes.I wonder what would have happened if TH flopped or was totally 'Rotten' unlikely but it would have been very interesting. I'm honestly surprised they haven't (quietly) started A Silmarillion film petition...

I actually feel sorry for the rock and hard place most of the staff are stuck between. It's quite obvious. I remember one of the mods saying something to that effect publicly on the forums once.I do recall something along the same lines myself...that's the simple truth I think at the end of the day Mods are the biggest fans with the most power and responsibility on a forum, It's not a job I'd want, and the circumstances aren't something I can really judge on imo

Other than adhering to some basic etiquette, which you all have rightly pointed out that I was ignorant of, I'm not sure what else to say on my end.

Just thought I'd chime in with some of my thoughts.

Interesting post.

Stig wrote:Is is it just me or did Gundabad look like a recycled Black Gate location complete with Legolas and Tauriel as Frodo and Sam hiding behind the rock?

I can't remember, but there are lots of nods to LOTR in these films, didn't Gundabad look vaguely volcanic (in terms of rock type)? Maybe they used it as a reference point

I haven't watched the films all the way through in years, and frankly struggle to remember most of them (that goes for both trilogies), I have neither the time nor inclination to do a marathon at the mo though...

malickfan wrote:

Stig wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Stig wrote:
Shows what I know about other Tolkien sites.

Maybe I sped through the thread, but I didn't see much response to Petty. But facts are facts and you may be right. I'll have to go look again (if I care enough to). But it's hard not to notice the trend for critical responses.

However we'll have to agree to disagree on (what I deem) as TORN's demise. Like I said I was there since 2000 and in no way was the pro-film vs criticism sentiment as heated during the LOTR eraReally? I've only been active on Tolkien Forums since mid 2011, but I've read more than a few opnions things were split just as badly between purist and non purist camps back in the LOTR days-perhaps because LOTR is considered Tolkien's 'Epic' whereas The Hobbit has a different reputation, nor were the mods so heavy handedMaybe it comes with the increased exposure the site has had? In the three years I've posted there (sporadically) it seems more young people and teenagers have started posting...who don't always have the best etiquette on the net. In fact the idea that Petty had to be PMed positive feedback of his review demonstrates that: people would feel marginalized for openly agreeing with himI have heard similar stories from others, but it not something I have experience...ironically I see to take the attitude the mods on TORn apparently do...avoid getting into arguments...it's not worth the hassle.

Furthermore the staff weren't so obviously strained between their personal feelings and keeping a working professional relationship with the filmmaking teamWell, they do have a job to do...and I'm not entirely sure how TORn is funded....

My criticism of the site (like that of the films) is not just to be talking shit, it's because I notice a negative trend in something I used to once enjoy and felt apart ofI do feel the same way to a certain extent, but my viewpoint is coloured by my neagtive reaction to the Trilogy and relative 'newbie' status in Tolkien Fandom. And the only way I know of to try and put the breaks on it is saying something about it. Maybe they, themselves, don't notice.

I don't know the situation with certain people being banned or any other personal/"political" dealings going on, so I probably shouldn't be commenting on that. I'm just pointing out what I've seen. It is probably true that the non-movie threads are much more civil and may also be true that some of the old members are coming back (I haven't seen any on the movie threads, in fact I've seen more disappear since SmaugYes, I've noticed a few names dissapear, I've haven't really been a regular poster on TORn since shorly after Smaug myself    I simply don't see the point in posting most of the time.)

I understand your position in trying to give fairness to TORN and how overwhelming it may seem with all the snide and snarkiness coming from some of usWell let's be honest most of us   , but ultimately I think you may be glossing over some serious problems there. Problems that I feel fully justified, having been a heavy participant and never banned there for almost 15 yearsCurious, what was your username? (I can't remember a Stig...) PM me if you want to let me know. That's quite an impressive stint on a website   , in calling out. I think I'm in a good position to judge Better than me certainly(but others here, who may've been there just as long also disagree with me. So who knows. The old site is gone and my memory is perhaps colored by nostalgia. But I really don't think so.) And again, I left there on my own accord.

I do want to add, though, that this behavior is not just TORN. There are a number of people working on the project that have lamented changes in PJ, but also tread carefully and professionally, as not to piss off the director with new found power in the business. I get all that too. Professionalism, trying to keep your job, etc., but it doesn't make for good art.  And that's where we powerless forum members on the net come in. We don't have to worry about our jobs, so we're the only ones that can speak clearly. Kinda like politics or students watching their schools change in ways that are at odds with their traditional purpose. (Not that I'm conflating these films with that level of importance, but the same issues apply.)A fair point

The most basic issue is that they just sold out. I get that they're volunteers, etc. etc. but it's gotten to the point where they're being heavy handed in fear of their "sponsors" or (would be sponsors) and it's a very disappointing turn of events. Every day I think "maybe I'm being just a bit too crabbit and not seeing clearly." Then I pop every now and again and roll my eyes.I wonder what would have happened if TH flopped or was totally 'Rotten' unlikely but it would have been very interesting. I'm honestly surprised they haven't (quietly) started A Silmarillion film petition...

I actually feel sorry for the rock and hard place most of the staff are stuck between. It's quite obvious. I remember one of the mods saying something to that effect publicly on the forums once.I do recall something along the same lines myself...that's the simple truth I think at the end of the day Mods are the biggest fans with the most power and responsibility on a forum, It's not a job I'd want, and the circumstances aren't something I can really judge on imo

Other than adhering to some basic etiquette, which you all have rightly pointed out that I was ignorant of, I'm not sure what else to say on my end.

Just thought I'd chime in with some of my thoughts.

Interesting post.

You can't remember a "Stig" because there wasn't one...  Gandalf, Mithrandir, Stormcrow, Greyhame, Olorion, etc. "names" change (I do remember you though   )

[quote="Stig"][quote="malickfan"][quote="Stig"][quote="Eldorion"]

Stig wrote:

You can't remember a "Stig" because there wasn't one...  Gandalf, Mithrandir, Stormcrow, Greyhame, Olorion, etc. "names" change (I do remember you though   )

Ah. That would explain it...Gandalf a favourite character by any chance?

I mostly use the same name for all forums, though I've only really posted here and TORn (and Bree before it folded) in terms of Tolkien forums.

[quote="malickfan"]

Stig wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Stig wrote:
Shows what I know about other Tolkien sites.

Maybe I sped through the thread, but I didn't see much response to Petty. But facts are facts and you may be right. I'll have to go look again (if I care enough to). But it's hard not to notice the trend for critical responses.

However we'll have to agree to disagree on (what I deem) as TORN's demise. Like I said I was there since 2000 and in no way was the pro-film vs criticism sentiment as heated during the LOTR eraReally? I've only been active on Tolkien Forums since mid 2011, but I've read more than a few opnions things were split just as badly between purist and non purist camps back in the LOTR days-perhaps because LOTR is considered Tolkien's 'Epic' whereas The Hobbit has a different reputation, nor were the mods so heavy handedMaybe it comes with the increased exposure the site has had? In the three years I've posted there (sporadically) it seems more young people and teenagers have started posting...who don't always have the best etiquette on the net. In fact the idea that Petty had to be PMed positive feedback of his review demonstrates that: people would feel marginalized for openly agreeing with himI have heard similar stories from others, but it not something I have experience...ironically I see to take the attitude the mods on TORn apparently do...avoid getting into arguments...it's not worth the hassle.

I just wanted to respond to your timeline of TORN. In my estimation 2010/11 is when the big changes began. I'm not discounting your opinion because you're newer, but my criticism of the site's changes are coming from further back, if that makes any sense. I suppose like a geezer going on about the old/glory days. If anyone was around earlier than that perhaps they can correct my memory.

And Don't get me wrong, there was always some heat, but from about 2011 there's just been massive fallout and I sincerely think it's due to the (lack of) quality in the films and PJ & Co's new found disassociation with Tolkien. It's like two different groups of people. And I think that this evident lack of respect for the source material was the last straw for many forum member along with TORN's (seeming) willful ignorance toward the matter.

Like I said, I sympathize with their position, but I think they've just sold out wholesale and certain forum members just aren't cool with it. I, myself, never thought I'd be on the "anti" PJ side, or even acknowledging a Tolkien vs Jackson argument, but then here I am.

Anyway nice reply.

malickfan wrote:

Stig wrote:

malickfan wrote:

Stig wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

Stig wrote:

You can't remember a "Stig" because there wasn't one...  Gandalf, Mithrandir, Stormcrow, Greyhame, Olorion, etc. "names" change (I do remember you though   )

Ah. That would explain it...Gandalf a favourite character by any chance?

I mostly use the same name for all forums, though I've only really posted here and TORn (and Bree before it folded) in terms of Tolkien forums.

Actually, yes, Gandalf is indeed my favorite in both films and books. Yeah I had another monicker, actually one I always used elsewhere, but if you can believe it, I feared some kind of retro-ban from the sites if they caught me bad mouthing the films on another site and I think it's fair to at least want to be able to access TORN (maybe the bad vibes will clear out once the films are done and PJ & Co take less interest in the site and I'll chat with my old friends, openly, again.In a sense I'm hoping that this is just a "phase" for TORN.)

Stig I understand your loyalty to the old TORn and its hard when you see a forum you have spent a lot of time with, change for the worst. A lot of us here used to post on a site we called Bree, but was really The Hobbit Movie news, now its disappeared completely, we had some fantastic debates on Tolkien and the films but it went sour towards the end and we got swamped by spam at one point, and it was sad to see it go forever.

As for my 'banning' I know I have a certain er..lets say no nonsense style, but I will repeat I only lost it with the mods once after being goaded beyond patience. The other 3 times I was perfectly civil, I did not bully, abuse anyone or use foul language, I did NOT in any shape or form break their rules, (apart from coming back for more, and if that's a crime, sue me!). I went back because I liked it there and there were some interesting people. I was sometimes brutally honest, didn't hold my tongue and did some mild sarcasticating, but nothing to get banned for. For bollocks sake! Actually a few other people I liked there seemed to get banned one guy, think he was called ShelobsAppetite of something like that, he got banned for being honest too. That sucked.

Stig wrote:

Actually, yes, Gandalf is indeed my favorite in both films and books. Yeah I had another monicker, actually one I always used elsewhere, but if you can believe it, I feared some kind of retro-ban from the sites if they caught me bad mouthing the films on another site and I think it's fair to at least want to be able to access TORN (maybe the bad vibes will clear out once the films are done and PJ & Co take less interest in the site and I'll chat with my old friends, openly, again.In a sense I'm hoping that this is just a "phase" for TORN.)

Gandalf seems to be a favourite of everyone , I post openly here under malickfan as well as on TORn, although I tend to stay pretty neutral on the fandom/other forums issues, I'm not shy in voicing my opinions about the films, honesty is always the best form of criticism is my book (even if I tend not to be as brutal as others) I've never really engaged in hardcore debates at TORn nor made any long standing friends (solely on my part, I just find the forum, like others I post on too busy and large to keep up with, I personally have never had any issues with posters there, the only 'criticism' I can say (which is true for all forums) is that fans take things very seriously...) so I can't really comment on feeling a sense of loss I suppose. It's interesting you say 'phase' the next few years (possible spin off films, the ongoing lawsuit, Christopher Tolkien's eventual passing etc) will all bring massive changes to the way the fandom works, for every Tolkien site it may prove to be a phase of sorts, without the juggernaut of TH films (which had knowhere near the cultural impact the LOTR films did) It's going to be interesting to see if TORn rebrands itself, for better or worse it's the biggest Tolkien/Jackson fansite around.

I just wanted to respond to your timeline of TORN. In my estimation 2010/11 is when the big changes beganAs early as that? Perhaps with the many new Hobbit forums, and a younger fanbase growing up in the time between the two trilogies, the make up of forums was changed? Most of the 'Oldies' I knew on TORn or elsewhere had been long standing fans of Tolkien for decades, realtively few seemed to hang around till 2011 after being introduced by the LOTR films. I'm not discounting your opinion because you're newer, but my criticism of the site's changes are coming from further back, if that makes any senseYes it does, like I said I'm only basing things on what I've read or heard about. I suppose like a geezer going on about the old/glory daysEldo's written a few interesting posts about Tolkien fandom somewhere on here.... If anyone was around earlier than that perhaps they can correct my memory.

And Don't get me wrong, there was always some heat, but from about 2011 there's just been massive fallout and I sincerely think it's due to the (lack of) quality in the films and PJ & Co's new found disassociation with TolkienI think it boils down to everyone's expectations were too high, we waited to long, and they had too much money...so the failure seems magnified I think. It's like two different groups of people. And I think that this evident lack of respect for the source material Whether Jackson ever had respect for the source material is something Petty at least will take many issues with...was the last straw for many forum member along with TORN's (seeming) willful ignorance toward the matterCall me ignorant, but I'd always assumed, until I started posting that The Hobbit was a more popular book than LOTR (of the seven people I know personally Who have read Tolkien, 5 have only read The Hobbit, all adult men)...it's been a little disheartening to see it treated with less respect by certain elements of the fanbase, almost as if Jackson's LOTR films and the boost it gave to the fandom gave him free rein to do what he wanted.

Like I said, I sympathize with their positionI certainly do, and I'd probably do the same in their position, but I think they've just sold out wholesale and certain forum members just aren't cool with it. I, myself, never thought I'd be on the "anti" PJ sideI'm not Anti PJ per se, more annoyed and jaded by the whole thing, or even acknowledging a Tolkien vs Jackson argument, but then here I amThat's what the internet does to you....

Anyway nice reply.]

Mrs Figg wrote:Stig I understand your loyalty to the old TORn and its hard when you see a forum you have spent a lot of time with, change for the worst. A lot of us here used to post on a site we called Bree, but was really The Hobbit Movie news, now its disappeared completely, we had some fantastic debates on Tolkien and the films but it went sour towards the end and we got swamped by spam at one point, and it was sad to see it go forever.

As for my 'banning' I know I have a certain er..lets say no nonsense style, but I will repeat I only lost it with the mods once after being goaded beyond patience. The other 3 times I was perfectly civil, I did not bully, abuse anyone or use foul language, I did NOT in any shape or form break their rules, (apart from coming back for more, and if that's a crime, sue me!). I went back because I liked it there and there were some interesting people. I was sometimes brutally honest, didn't hold my tongue and did some mild sarcasticating, but nothing to get banned for. For bollocks sake!  Actually a few other people I liked there seemed to get banned one guy, think he was called ShelobsAppetite of something like that, he got banned for being honest too. That sucked.

I actually remember a poster with that name and avatar. Can't say I remember his/her posts all that much. There was an organic way of certain allies sticking together (and, oddly, certain adversaries continually squaring off.) Although these days it's so much easier to remember certain people (usually the critical posters).

I have heard of you guys talking of Bree, but as I've said before (and demonstrated) I'm pretty ignorant to Tolkien sites aside from the ones I belonged to (ringbearer.org, TORN). I do know of Barrow wights. They seem pretty harsh as well, but a little less colorful than the folks here. But not a bad group at all from what I lurked.

malickfan wrote:

Stig wrote:

Actually, yes, Gandalf is indeed my favorite in both films and books. Yeah I had another monicker, actually one I always used elsewhere, but if you can believe it, I feared some kind of retro-ban from the sites if they caught me bad mouthing the films on another site and I think it's fair to at least want to be able to access TORN (maybe the bad vibes will clear out once the films are done and PJ & Co take less interest in the site and I'll chat with my old friends, openly, again.In a sense I'm hoping that this is just a "phase" for TORN.)

Gandalf seems to be a favourite of everyone , I post openly here under malickfan as well as on TORn, although I tend to stay pretty neutral on the fandom/other forums issues, I'm not shy in voicing my opinions about the films, honesty is always the best form of criticism is my book (even if I tend not to be as brutal as others) I've never really engaged in hardcore debates at TORn nor made any long standing friends (solely on my part, I just find the forum, like others I post on too busy and large to keep up with, I personally have never had any issues with posters there, the only 'criticism' I can say (which is true for all forums) is that fans take things very seriously...) so I can't really comment on feeling a sense of loss I suppose. It's interesting you say 'phase' the next few years (possible spin off films, the ongoing lawsuit, Christopher Tolkien's eventual passing   etc) will all bring massive changes to the way the fandom works, for every Tolkien site it may prove to be a phase of sorts, without the juggernaut of TH films (which had knowhere near the cultural impact the LOTR films did) It's going to be interesting to see if TORn rebrands itself, for better or worse it's the biggest Tolkien/Jackson fansite around.

I just wanted to respond to your timeline of TORN. In my estimation 2010/11 is when the big changes beganAs early as that? Perhaps with the many new Hobbit forums, and a younger fanbase growing up in the time between the two trilogies, the make up of forums was changed? Most of the 'Oldies' I knew on TORn or elsewhere had been long standing fans of Tolkien for decades, realtively few seemed to hang around till 2011 after being introduced by the LOTR films. I'm not discounting your opinion because you're newer, but my criticism of the site's changes are coming from further back, if that makes any senseYes it does, like I said I'm only basing things on what I've read or heard about. I suppose like a geezer going on about the old/glory daysEldo's written a few interesting posts about Tolkien fandom somewhere on here.... If anyone was around earlier than that perhaps they can correct my memory.

And Don't get me wrong, there was always some heat, but from about 2011 there's just been massive fallout and I sincerely think it's due to the (lack of) quality in the films and PJ & Co's new found disassociation with TolkienI think it boils down to everyone's expectations were too high, we waited to long, and they had too much money...so the failure seems magnified I think. It's like two different groups of people. And I think that this evident lack of respect for the source material Whether Jackson ever had respect for the source material is something Petty at least will take many issues with...was the last straw for many forum member along with TORN's (seeming) willful ignorance toward the matterCall me ignorant, but I'd always assumed, until I started posting that The Hobbit was a more popular book than LOTR (of the seven people I know personally Who have read Tolkien, 5 have only read The Hobbit, all adult men)...it's been a little disheartening to see it treated with less respect by certain elements of the fanbase, almost as if Jackson's LOTR films and the boost it gave to the fandom gave him free rein to do what he wanted.

Oh I know. Believe me, I'm gearing up for the eventual show down with Petty over pre ROTK PJ and his filmmaking abilities and respect for Tolkien. It'll probably be quite amusing to see me vehemently defending PJ (unlike Fili & Kili for Thorin. *Zing*!), but as I've mentioned (and Petty too) I was a huge Jackson fan pre ROTK and actually tolerated him until Smaug displayed, without a doubt that his Oscar sickness completely did him in. But that's a battle for another day.

I think the Hobbit is the more familiar, because it's the easy read and one people can share with their kids. Most people these days think LOTR is too much of a slog. But I don't blame PJ for that (I blame Mtv). Whatever the case all I can say is I thank Eru, that by some odd legal twist, LOTR got made first. WOW. The current PJ would've utterly destroyed that story. Can you imagine the rewrites?!?

Stig wrote:I do know of Barrow wights. They seem pretty harsh as well, but a little less colorful than the folks here.

Oh please, you'll make me blush.

Hey Stig, thanks for the comprehensive response you gave to my earlier post.  Unfortunately I'm too tired to give a similarly comprehensive reply, but there were a few points I wanted to touch on briefly (edit: lol).

Stig wrote:EDIT: I forgot to add my biggest point. I feel that if the staff were more open with their own criticisms of the films, that most  forum members would be me open and tolerant to the more critical forum members. I don't think this was possible the first time around, because most staffers were happy with the films and were more able to discuss their disappointments because the disappointments were not overriding, whereas with the Hobbit movies the reverse is true.

I don't want to be an asshole here (...said everyone who was ever about to be an asshole), and I certainly don't want to put words into your mouth, but I really feel that you're basing your assessment of TORn's past on ... not necessarily a romanticized version, but one that is severely constricted by personal viewpoints.  As I've mentioned before, TORn has had a reputation as one of the most staunchly pro-PJ forums for a long time.  I first joined TORn in 2009 and I went in fully prepared to be given shit for my (at the time) vocal purist beliefs because I had heard all the stories about TORn from older people.

I get the sense from your posts that you weren't really part of the purist-revisionist wars that took place before, during, and after the LOTR movies (roughly 1999-2010, though it ended earlier on many forums).  There were a lot of forums that were unwelcoming to purists during this time period.  For a while, the LOTR Plaza basically had an open policy of holding purists to a stricter standard of conduct because the purists were (with some reason, I admit) thought to make the forum seem less welcoming.  There were of course sites like the Barrow-downs and TORC that were considered more purist-leaning, though the mods there still tried to keep a limit on it at some times.  Criticizing the focus of a fandom on a fan forum is always a tricky proposition, and like it or not, the movies were the reason for nearly every post-Usenet Tolkien forum coming into existence.

I wasn't around for the movies themselves, but even as late as 2009-10 or so, there were alternatives to TORn that were just as active or even moreso that were also much more welcoming to purists (including the Plaza, which had undergone some mod reforms in its movie section by then).  Nowadays, there aren't any other Tolkien forums with the size and reach of TORn, so I suspect there are a lot more purists who go there.  But clearly, The Hobbit movies have taken a lot of PJ fans and made them disillusioned, which I suspect is probably the biggest factor in the cultural shifts at TORn over the last several years.  I've noticed on a lot of forums, especially this one, that people who thought no wrong of PJ until after AUJ or DOS tend to be a lot more vitriolic in their condemnations of him and of TH.  People like Petty and myself who have spent years debating the flaws of the LOTR trilogy got most of our emotions out a long time ago.  We predicted a lot of the ways in which TH disappointed and can see the continuity of flaws from the earlier trilogy to the latter one.  I admit I'm generalizing here, but there seems to be a lot of confusion and anger from certain fans about how The Hobbit could have been a disappointment, and I think that contributes to the poisonous atmosphere, especially when this group crosses paths with those who still think PJ has a perfect track record with Middle-earth.

Stig wrote:All true. But not to this extent. I'm not a fan of the "X problem has always existed" argument because that gives the impression that things can't/don't get worse or cross a line. But like I said, perhaps I am misremembering TORN as it was. But I honestly don't recall this much friction, by so many different people.

I think the biggest change is that TORn's longstanding double standards in moderation have now been turned against a significant portion of their traditional base.  People who have been in the purist camp for years can tell you that TORn has never been the most welcoming place for anti-movie arguments, and I simply don't see the evidence that they've gotten significantly worse.  If anything, several of their mods have made an effort to reign in the worst excesses of the pro-movie side as well.  I admit that part of my lack of sympathy for the anti-TORn brigade comes from the feeling that it's largely people who had or would have had no problem with the double standards until they were personally affected by it, and I find this attitude (as well as the co-opting of the purist banner) to be mildly offensive.  I'm not singling you out here or anything, Stig, because I don't know you personally, but this is a sense I've gotten from a lot of complaints about TORn in the recent-ish past.  The irony is particularly sharp since this forum has demonstrated its own hostility to pro-movie viewpoints in the past few months, and it was mostly people who loved PJ until recently who were jumping on the guy the hardest.

But more to the point, online forums are private property, and TORn is pretty upfront about its rules and norms.  I have never liked the nanny style of moderating, and I decided a number of years ago that I wanted to be as hands-off as possible as a mod (having previously been strict and kind of an asshole as one on the Plaza; now I try to keep my assholishness limited to posts made in my non-official capacity).  But TORn has the right to run their forum the way they see fit, and it really isn't that hard to post productively there (as I'm sure you know, not having been banned from there either).

What bothers me more than anything else about this, and the main reason why I go on for so long when the topic is raised, is that I'm afraid of this forum turning into the TORn rejects board.  I have had multiple people PM me in the past few weeks expressing concern about the regularity and negativity with which TORn is brought up on this forum, and especially about specific posters being singled out for criticism on here.  I have aired my complaints about TORn's moderation policies before (and touched on them again earlier in this post), but the level of venom and the general feeling of vendetta that surrounds recent discussions of TORn is immensely off-putting to me.  Honestly, the only reason I continue to engage in these discussions is because I don't want this issue to compromise my limited-moderation vision, and so far, engaging the negativity when it crops up has been the best way I can think of to respond to this trend without doing something I'd be uncomfortable with, mod-wise.

On a less meta note...

Stig wrote:The bridge movie.
I went with my family and at that moment in the film, literally one of them whispered to me "Is there another one [movie] coming?"

That's pretty funny. I was surprised by just how resilient the bridge movie meme ended up being, considering that the concept was abandoned by the filmmakers so early on. I don't think (or don't want to think) that they were deliberately setting up a spin-off, but I can see how it'd come off that way. I think PJ and Co. were mainly just trying to engage in worldbuilding and giving The Hobbit a more prominent place in the broader history, but intentionally or not, it certainly left a lot of plot hooks for future movies.

I still think PJ is done with Middle-earth after this, but that doesn't mean WB or some other enterprising director and/or producer won't try to take a crack at it.

Eldorion wrote:Hey Stig, thanks for the comprehensive response you gave to my earlier post.  Unfortunately I'm too tired to give a similarly comprehensive reply, but there were a few points I wanted to touch on briefly (edit: lol).

Stig wrote:EDIT: I forgot to add my biggest point. I feel that if the staff were more open with their own criticisms of the films, that most  forum members would be me open and tolerant to the more critical forum members. I don't think this was possible the first time around, because most staffers were happy with the films and were more able to discuss their disappointments because the disappointments were not overriding, whereas with the Hobbit movies the reverse is true.

I don't want to be an asshole here (...said everyone who was ever about to be an asshole), and I certainly don't want to put words into your mouth, but I really feel that you're basing your assessment of TORn's past on ... not necessarily a romanticized version, but one that is severely constricted by personal viewpoints.  As I've mentioned before, TORn has had a reputation as one of the most staunchly pro-PJ forums for a long time.  I first joined TORn in 2009 and I went in fully prepared to be given shit for my (at the time) vocal purist beliefs because I had heard all the stories about TORn from older people.

I get the sense from your posts that you weren't really part of the purist-revisionist wars that took place before, during, and after the LOTR movies (roughly 1999-2010, though it ended earlier on many forums).  There were a lot of forums that were unwelcoming to purists during this time period.  For a while, the LOTR Plaza basically had an open policy of holding purists to a stricter standard of conduct because the purists were (with some reason, I admit) thought to make the forum seem less welcoming.  There were of course sites like the Barrow-downs and TORC that were considered more purist-leaning, though the mods there still tried to keep a limit on it at some times.  Criticizing the focus of a fandom on a fan forum is always a tricky proposition, and like it or not, the movies were the reason for nearly every post-Usenet Tolkien forum coming into existence.

I wasn't around for the movies themselves, but even as late as 2009-10 or so, there were alternatives to TORn that were just as active or even moreso that were also much more welcoming to purists (including the Plaza, which had undergone some mod reforms in its movie section by then).  Nowadays, there aren't any other Tolkien forums with the size and reach of TORn, so I suspect there are a lot more purists who go there.  But clearly, The Hobbit movies have taken a lot of PJ fans and made them disillusioned, which I suspect is probably the biggest factor in the cultural shifts at TORn over the last several years.  I've noticed on a lot of forums, especially this one, that people who thought no wrong of PJ until after AUJ or DOS tend to be a lot more vitriolic in their condemnations of him and of TH.  People like Petty and myself who have spent years debating the flaws of the LOTR trilogy got most of our emotions out a long time ago.  We predicted a lot of the ways in which TH disappointed and can see the continuity of flaws from the earlier trilogy to the latter one.  I admit I'm generalizing here, but there seems to be a lot of confusion and anger from certain fans about how The Hobbit could have been a disappointment, and I think that contributes to the poisonous atmosphere, especially when this group crosses paths with those who still think PJ has a perfect track record with Middle-earth.

Stig wrote:All true. But not to this extent. I'm not a fan of the "X problem has always existed" argument because that gives the impression that things can't/don't get worse or cross a line. But like I said, perhaps I am misremembering TORN as it was. But I honestly don't recall this much friction, by so many different people.

I think the biggest change is that TORn's longstanding double standards in moderation have now been turned against a significant portion of their traditional base.  People who have been in the purist camp for years can tell you that TORn has never been the most welcoming place for anti-movie arguments, and I simply don't see the evidence that they've gotten significantly worse.  If anything, several of their mods have made an effort to reign in the worst excesses of the pro-movie side as well.  I admit that part of my lack of sympathy for the anti-TORn brigade comes from the feeling that it's largely people who had or would have had no problem with the double standards until they were personally affected by it, and I find this attitude (as well as the co-opting of the purist banner) to be mildly offensive.  I'm not singling you out here or anything, Stig, because I don't know you personally, but this is a sense I've gotten from a lot of complaints about TORn in the recent-ish past.  The irony is particularly sharp since this forum has demonstrated its own hostility to pro-movie viewpoints in the past few months, and it was mostly people who loved PJ until recently who were jumping on the guy the hardest.

But more to the point, online forums are private property, and TORn is pretty upfront about its rules and norms.  I have never liked the nanny style of moderating, and I decided a number of years ago that I wanted to be as hands-off as possible as a mod (having previously been strict and kind of an asshole as one on the Plaza; now I try to keep my assholishness limited to posts made in my non-official capacity).  But TORn has the right to run their forum the way they see fit, and it really isn't that hard to post productively there (as I'm sure you know, not having been banned from there either).

What bothers me more than anything else about this, and the main reason why I go on for so long when the topic is raised, is that I'm afraid of this forum turning into the TORn rejects board.  I have had multiple people PM me in the past few weeks expressing concern about the regularity and negativity with which TORn is brought up on this forum, and especially about specific posters being singled out for criticism on here.  I have aired my complaints about TORn's moderation policies before (and touched on them again earlier in this post), but the level of venom and the general feeling of vendetta that surrounds recent discussions of TORn is immensely off-putting to me.  Honestly, the only reason I continue to engage in these discussions is because I don't want this issue to compromise my limited-moderation vision, and so far, engaging the negativity when it crops up has been the best way I can think of to respond to this trend without doing something I'd be uncomfortable with, mod-wise.

Fair enough.

Believe me, I'm gearing up for the eventual show down with Petty over pre ROTK PJ and his filmmaking abilities and respect for Tolkien.- Stig

Oh Im game any time! The LotR's films are just as bad as TH films in all ways except how often PJ could get away with making them more PJ and less Tolkien.
All that reigned him in the first time was technical and budgetary limitations on what he wanted to do, not having the clout yet to do as he wanted too, and the need to keep the book fan base onside long enough to convince them- his Tolkien credentials only last whilst those factors in play- as soon as he has your money and more say we get a steady decline in all thing Tolkien and a steady increase in all things PJ from FotR onwards.
Although for the record out of PJ's TE of LotR's TT is for my money the worst made film of the three. Pretty awful in most important respects.

Although if you fancy a debate on the merits of Pj's LotR's we should probably pop over to the LotR's section for it.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Although if you fancy a debate on the merits of Pj's LotR's we should probably pop over to the LotR's section for it.

and good luck with that

''The irony is particularly sharp since this forum has demonstrated its own hostility to pro-movie viewpoints in the past few months, and it was mostly people who loved PJ until recently who were jumping on the guy the hardest''. Eldo


that seems to imply that the recent criticisms of PJ is mindless bashing for the sake of it and without good reason. If the guy makes a turkey people should be allowed to say so without feeling guilty or tip-toeing around.

Can I change my signature to 'TORn Reject'

Is that in reference to BN (was it BN?) I liked them! A bit trolly in some comments, but I can forgive that when you may feel like you are standing alone its not an unnatural response.
And I don't feel my responses were harsh or unfair or unkind in my interactions with them.
I didnt think they were jumped on- people debated the points raised by them, and did so forthrightly thats true.
But I did not detect the undercurrent of systematic attempts to undermine or deride the poster rather than the arguments, which I have witnessed all too often on the other site and which leaves a bad taste.

If someone who loves TH films comes here to say so people may take issue with their view, but they will not be attacked for holding it- after all Figg loves the LotR's films and often says so {{{ }}} but I still think she's brilliant despite this obvious and glaring flaw in her character!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
If someone who loves TH films comes here to say so people may take issue with their view, but they will not be attacked for holding it- after all Figg loves the LotR's films and often says so {{{ }}} but I still think she's brilliant despite this obvious and glaring flaw in her character!

Actually get ready for my once a year lovefest. I think all you guys are great and I care about you all a lot.
I would particularly thank Eldo for his level headed and fair modding and sorry if I have given him any headaches over the year. But yeah in general and on reflection you guys are the best.


now I will just wipe up this grey puke down my jumper

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Is that in reference to BN (was it BN?) I liked them! A bit trolly in some comments, but I can forgive that when you may feel like you are standing alone its not an unnatural response...But I did not detect the undercurrent of systematic attempts to undermine or deride the poster rather than the arguments, which I have witnessed all too often on the other site and which leaves a bad taste.

Well I had a large helping of that bad taste. I read through about six pages of back-and-forth and by the end of it I was quite perturbed.
Still, he provided some variety. So that was nice.

Mrs Figg wrote:that seems to imply that the recent criticisms of PJ is mindless bashing for the sake of it and without good reason. If the guy makes a turkey people should be allowed to say so without feeling guilty or tip-toeing around.

I was not attempting to say that, and I apologize if that was the implication. I have criticized The Hobbit movies extensively in my reviews for all three films. However, I have noticed that the level of intensity (and occasional anger) seems to be higher for people who were positive about PJ until the last two or three years. This is a generalization but I think it holds true for a majority of cases.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Is that in reference to BN (was it BN?) I liked them! A bit trolly in some comments, but I can forgive that when you may feel like you are standing alone its not an unnatural response...But I did not detect the undercurrent of systematic attempts to undermine or deride the poster rather than the arguments, which I have witnessed all too often on the other site and which leaves a bad taste.

I think that for the most part people were engaging with BN's arguments rather than making personal attacks, yes. However, I do not believe that BN would have received as much criticism had he been making arguments against the films, even if he had been making equally fallacious and disingenuous points. People who rock the boat of majority opinion tend to receive stronger reactions, while people who agree with the majority are given a pass more readily. This is true for here, for TORn, and for pretty much all communities.

Well, it can be difficult not to disagree with someone you disagree with.

Sorry for this having taken some time.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I am curious Blue- which bits do you think apply also to the book?
And what did I miss- I was very drunk you know!

I think I was mostly refering to Thranduil and Thorins characters.And how you can kind of see their character development in the films also in the book, but to a lesser degree. Thorin does pretty much go mad with greed for the treasure in the book as well, if the dragon sickness in itself is invented. And while Thranduil in the book does come to the aid of the people of Laketown, his lust for some of the treasure and his love for gems is established there to. It's ramped up, but I feel it has it's basis in the book. Now I probably mostly notice it because I noticed myself before kind of skirting the lines on this, and sometimes the deviation through adaptation angle doesn't actually take the movies so far from the original. So, I'm not saying you've overstepped the mark, but just something I noticed,

As for what you left out, I was refering to was Gandalfs monologue about Saurons reasons for wanting to capture the Lonely Mountain. Which is an attempt to justify his inclusion in their original writing for the triology, but surprisingly makes as much sense as said inclusion. It was the worst part of the movie to me.

My coment was a bit silly though, as my primary impression of your review was how much we agreed on. And on quite a few mattes I haven't seen a lot of other people mention.

And you noted some stuff that I missed, but that I on reflection completely agree with. Like the sending of the raven from the Lonely Mountaon and the arrival of Dains host like.. a day later. It's a great cinematic moment when they release the raven from the mountain in response to the approaching armies, but in  the internal narrative of the movie it just makes no sense.